Proper coin tossing

[andponomarev]

Hello,

Please tell me if there's a proper way of tossing coins. Things I care about:

a) Which is better: tossing coins in hands, or in a glass/box, i.e. something we put coins in, and then move to the table. For instance, I do both: sometimes I just toss it in hands, and drop to the table, or in a wooden glass. Just wonder if there's a proper way.
b) Is there a proper "initial" coin setting? For example, we start tossing with "all heads", or "all tails", or something else?

Thanks!

[The-Monk]

There are ways that are "proper". But there are no "proper" ways.

a) We have heard of people using Tortoise Shells, mixer cups, hands, a cloth bag even. And they have dropped coins on a red ash table, a glass table, a small dish, a stone floor, and even a rickety old uneven bamboo table.

b) We have heard of people who didn't care and put them in randomly, some put them in all heads, some all tails.

In all instances, the WWG system still works.  So there are no "proper" ways.

But there are ways that are "proper".

If you can help it, you will be clean (as possible for the time).
If you can help it, you will be calm (as possible for the time).

These are customs that have been passed down through time.

But there is one "golden" rule:

You must be honest.

[Gmuli]

There are ways that are "proper". But there are no "proper" ways.

a) We have heard of people using Tortoise Shells, mixer cups, hands, a cloth bag even. And they have dropped coins on a red ash table, a glass table, a small dish, a stone floor, and even a rickety old uneven bamboo table.

b) We have heard of people who didn't care and put them in randomly, some put them in all heads, some all tails.

In all instances, the WWG system still works.  So there are no "proper" ways.

But there are ways that are "proper".

If you can help it, you will be clean (as possible for the time).
If you can help it, you will be calm (as possible for the time).

These are customs that have been passed down through time.

But there is one "golden" rule:

You must be honest.

I've been wondering about this, lately...
AK school seem sure that depending on the method use they can gain or lose accuracy. Initially I ignored that, everyone makes mistakes and since no one else had notice something like that as far as I'm aware, it made sense to either be a normal study problems(like bias to the different systems effecting the outcome) or other similar stuff in the way the observation was made, more then the actual principles of how it works.

Yet some time ago I stumbled upon some very accepted math principles that suggest that random numbers behave in a different way depending how they are made. Natural one has patterns that pseudo "random" ones do not. Apparently, IRS in US and other fraud detecting positions around there use it.

So its somewhat complicated position now. From one I also think this doesn't make much sense the source to matter, we make Hexagrams from events and they are very valid, no reason to not be able to make it from any source. But from another there seems to be patterns in randomness in nature that not all we use align with and that is already used in human world a lot.

Considering that I had to ask... How sure you are that the source doesn't matter and its always valid?

[Gmuli]

It doesn't really matter, I guess. For some reason in some readings it comes up that it may actually be true, so I added some fixes on the calculators just in case.

Now, it will produce random numbers in the same patterns that real world random numbers seem to arrange, at least as far as humanity have recognized so far. Since we don't have any explanation for them, there may be more rules that western science just doesn't know about, but for the once we know about our random number generators should produce same patterns that happen in nature.

If there is indeed loss of accuracy caused by that, people should get somewhat more fitting hexagrams now. If not, shouldn't be any worse.

[Sacrar]

Hey Gmuli,

I heard from someone knowledgeable in programming who has a fantastic iching app for smartphone, that most websites that perform automatic yijing cast are not truly random. In his app he allows user interaction either by touching the screen or by shaking the mobile phone to generate enough randomness dependent on the person-interface interaction.

He also commented that currently the most commonly used to generate true randomness are lava lamps.
https://www.electronicsweekly.com/uncategorised/lavarand-lava-lamps-warm-random-number-generation-2021-09/

https://www.wired.com/2003/08/random/

[Gmuli]

Yea, they aren't random. They can be connected to something "random" and some languages will produce the same sequence after that. Yet nothing is really random, though there are people that can tell you what side of the coin it will land after you throw it(air, muscles etc. there are components that aren't random either, some can do it with dice as well).

I think its more about variations then randomness.

However, I got the impression AKs problem went beyond that, as he mention user interaction also provide the same result at least in the apps they tried.

What we did is trying to use normal random numbers, but going through normalization that provides output that fits to patterns found in nature. As programming languages will change them so they are even in all aspects, they aren't even in nature. This is the only logical solution to all problems. As logically, if user interaction with delay still provide wrong input then only logical thing is that the somewhere along the way something else gets messed up in the way the programming languages handle that. And the way numbers are normalizaed in programming language seemed to be the only possible problem(even distribution etc).

Either that, or the apps they tested that were with user interaction(shaking the phone it was I think), didn't really used their interaction and stil just made random numbers.

Overall is very complex topic and until we have enough practitioners with high enough accuracy none of this can be tested in a equal level for all of us for WWG... All problems will have a solutaiton but without being able to test, its wise to assume there either isn't a problem or we fixed it,already.So I guess moving on seems the best idea. QMDJ doesn't have that problems, no random numbers in there for example. : )


There are many solutions though. There are appis that use special hardware that used movement of air, there are libraries that use date of last post in reddit and all other kinds of stuff... And depending what it is, if its the 'same sequence' problem we could just get all 3 numbers from the first set...

 But again - until we know the system well enough to test it, all is blind attempts to fix problem that we can't really see. And that is waste of time. : )
So I just added the most logical thing, and time will tell if it changed anything. I'm still aiming at other systems now, though, this was just a temporary step backwards as there was another project that I tried to do with the WWG calculators, so seemed good idea to at least fix that on the way, as
 the other thing didn't really worked out with the current code(it doesn't really matter, in any case).

[JLim]

I heard from someone knowledgeable in programming who has a fantastic iching app for smartphone, that most websites that perform automatic yijing cast are not truly random. In his app he allows user interaction either by touching the screen or by shaking the mobile phone to generate enough randomness dependent on the person-interface interaction.

Sacrar, what is the name of this app?

[Sacrar]

I heard from someone knowledgeable in programming who has a fantastic iching app for smartphone, that most websites that perform automatic yijing cast are not truly random. In his app he allows user interaction either by touching the screen or by shaking the mobile phone to generate enough randomness dependent on the person-interface interaction.

Sacrar, what is the name of this app?

Hi JLim. The app is called "Deepware Changes I Ching". It is for android platform only. The interface is in Spanish. It is based in traditional ZhouYi Yiying.