Solutions and the Five Arts

[Gmuli]

 Lets say we get some accuracy going... We can predict stuff nicely, now that by itself is a awesome step forward, but at some point we get to the step where we have to be able to point to a solution, as the person asking us will need that. There aren't always any, but often there are.

A little sidenote that is for advanced practitioners.
Here we can't really use the idea of using non moving line to focus on to restrict or buffer the problem, in my humble view. We can't do that because... Well, that was our idea 4-5 years ago, it seems great, but the problem is if we do that then the 'non moving line' becomes moving to prevent the problem. But as soon as it moves the whole resulting Trigram and Hexagram will change.Now the problem is not the problem, anymore, the solution may not be related to anything that is happening, anymore, and overall we changed too much to be useful. And if that happens our 'solution' will start working in short term, but it will actually change the whole outcome to a state where it isn't a solution anymore(as if that line moves all elements and roles in the resulting trigram are all always different).

Back on the main idea. The most important part is to figure out how to help, where in that persons life we can use what is available to create change(if that is what they ask for, obviously). One way to do this is to make the Setting so that it shows possible outcomes, what we think and what will actualy help on the same line. That automatically happens in some Yes/No settings, actually and finding it out was very good experience. : )

I think best way for the not so technical part of this is to psot a short story from a book. Its from Milton('in the room with Milton vol 1'), he could tell stories made in such a way that they induced changes in the people that were listening same as in the main character in the story. That was modeled and was thought in places(by David Gordon) I can recommend a wonderful seminar in Russia about it. While I haven't used it in the Five Arts places, its one of the strongest change inducing techniques we had back then, not including the heavy stuff that I don't use at all in any context, lately.
Anyway, the stories  can install in peoples to know where to look . Be that in WWG or bazi, we relate it to life and we look for the answers in the persons situation. There is ways to make the Hexagram shows all as  that, I use it based on the Yes/No thing, as already said, but the essence is that - we figure out how to adjust and where to look to find the 'flowers in the empty house'.

"One Place Where She Still Had Energy": The African Violet Queen

Milton Erickson: Now another example of short-term therapy. It isn't so much
what the therapist does, as what he gets his patient to do.
A classmate of mine saw me and said his mother and sister and her sister lived in
Milwaukee. Both were independently wealthy. And his aunt had a great big home, a
great big yard, 52 years old, unmarried, totally friendless. She went to church, uh,
regularly. She sat by-by herself. She didn't speak to the Episcopalian minister. She
didn't speak to any of the parishioners. And she went to church on every possible
occasion.
She had a housekeeper and a maid who came in each morning to do the housework,
prepare the meals, wash the dishes. And then in the evening left. The housekeeper
bought supplies, paid the yardman to keep the yard looking beautiful.
And that woman lived alone at a great big house. And my classmate told me, "My
aunt has been profoundly depressed for nine months. The housekeeper is worried
about her, so is the maid. She and my mother won't speak to each other. She has no
friends, and just goes to church. She likes me. She can't stand too frequent visits
from me. Once a year is about all she can take. And I'm worried about her. Now I
knew your lecture trips to Milwaukee. Will you look her up and see if you can do
anything for her?"
One evening I rapped at her door, the housekeeper and maid had long departed. I
identified myself and demanded that I be given a tour of the house. And she
passively agreed. I went from one room to another inspecting, hoping I'd find
something that I could use. And in the sunroom, I saw three African Violets in full
bloom, different colors. And in a fourth pot I saw that she had planted a leaf, be-
African Violets are propagated by planting leaves. And here's this depressed woman
passively walking through the house, showing it room by room to a stranger, didn't
care about it at all. I saw those three adult African Violets and the third one being
sprouted.

And I said, "Madam, in accordance with your son's wishes I'm going to write some
prescriptions for you and I want them carried out. You give these prescriptions to
your housekeeper tomorrow morning. Have her carry them out. I've prescribed that
the housekeeper buy her an adult African Violet of every hue that she did not own.
I think at that time there were 13 different hues. And then, she is to buy 50 potting
pots and a supply of soil from the nursery so she could plant some more African
Violet leaves and start growing African Violets. And I also asked that the
housekeeper buy 200 gift flowerpots. And my orders were: Every time a baby was
born to a member of the church she'd send the baby an adult African Violet. Every
time a baby got christened she'd send an adult African Violet. Every time a church
member got sick that member got an adult African Violet. Every time a girl
announced her engagement she got an-uh, African Violet. Every couple that was
married in church got an African Violet. At every church bazaar she contributed 12
to 20 African Violets to be sold. Every possible opportunity she was to give an
African Violet. At one time I know she had over 200 adult African Violets. Now my
wife thinks she really accomplished something. She kept a single African Violet
plant alive and in full bloom for three years. And they are the tenderest, urn plants
and they will die at the-the faintest excuse. The light has to be just right, the
amount of water you've given them, just right. And taking care of 200 or more
African Violets is a day's work. It doesn't give you a chance to shed a tear. You're
busy from early morning 'til late at night.

And so, some 20 years later, she died of natural causes with an endless number of
friends, The African Violet Queen of Milwaukee.
Just one visit, seeing just one place where she still had energy, and then capitalizing
on that energy and spreading it over everything.
And you can't give a-a beautiful African Violet to people without arousing their
good feeling toward you. She had plenty of friends of all ages. And at the church's
Christmas party, there were all these African Violets. The old, the young, the sick,
the well, newly-born, newly-christened, newly-married. It was a wonderful outlet for
her. And she really didn't have time to feel depressed. I saw her only once.
Psychotherapy is treating a patient as an individual who is unique. There will never
be a duplicate of that person. And you use the uniqueness of that person. And that
person possesses a lot of unknown qualities. And I discovered she liked African
Violets. I promoted a liking that she already had.

[ren]

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[Gmuli]

Part of the system. Have to decide what is fair and what isn't.
Of course, there is no way to read someone chart without 'changing' someone. As every word changes people... So aiming to read charts without changing people may be lost cause to begin with. But how to do it so it fits to the legal system in your country can be too complex topic for here.


In my country we aren't allowed to practice alternative medicine if we haven't finished at least something related to western ones. Can be a course for nurses or something, but can't just practice.

I see logic in that and we don't provide advices for medicine questions even though we only answer friends and friends of friends. We point them to healers that all had MD degree before but moved to alternative medicine with time as it worked better.

For normal human stuff, I can't imagine how basic human experiences like friendship or education can go without advices in spheres the person doesn't have degree in. Yet it depends on law and religion systems.

Can solve much of that with disclaimer. The diviner doesn't take responsibility for the outcome or something. People agree before divination.
Or with a way of reading / communicating that will just list options and expected outcomes...

But if the law system can be made to turn into random parts of the chain of events that lead to problems, then practice this is just going to be harder then in the rest of the world.

At the end of the day if someone wnts professional practice will have to clear this out with a lawyer in their country. In my country its usually fine, if it isn't medical advice and it isn't taking advantage of people. I know a lot of people that were practicing different systems that doesn't exist in the list of professions. Only one that was closed by the religious priests in my country was one that was charging very high for stuff that was questionable at best. And most of us would consider it fair I think.

So in here, as long as it isn't unhealthy for people its usually fine. In other countries depending on the law and religion systems it may not be. Everyone is suppose to check that out for themselves. May be solved by a simple disclaimer - diviner doesn't take responsibility for the effects of the advices. To registering as bussiness consulting or life couch. Or joining organization like BCMA https://www.bcma.co.uk/ long time ago some friends were joining that so they could practice in EU. Not sure its still the same now with the changes with brexit etc.

Overall, its very messy topic and not something we can clear out in a forum even for one specific country. But the overall idea is to know what your country require and follow along. If it is a degree may need a degree.
Or to align the system with some life coaching system and apply both.

The interpretation stage of it all will require that we know how to present the information, however and change or no change, advice or not, knowing how to do that may be wise to research some stuff used in therapies. As we can't read someones chart to them and not change them in the process.
Unless they really think its all useless, but then nothing matter anyway, we just work with the wrong client in that case.


P.S. The example for Milton was from a therapist seminars and it isn't the idea to advice people to focus on flowers. Its a way to point the subconscious for the 'flowers in the empty house' so its for the therapists(and in this case diviners) to look the charts in a different way. Of course, I didn't mean we should prescribe stuff to people, although I wouldn't hesitate to recommend someone to look for flowers if there is a reason to think it can be helpful. But again - may not be great idea everywhere.

[Gmuli]

I think the topic took a turn into places I'm really not qualified to carry it on, though.My idea was to point out to different ways of communicating and looking at the chart. Something we will ahve to do, no matter if we think is important or not.

The other stuff will depend on countries and laws and religions and is very, very complex, from what I have seen so far. And its way out of what I can help with. Maybe, however, other practitioners can give advices on how they work with this in their country...

[tyc]

Here are my 2 cents,

This is echoing similar opinions to Ren. 
1) What is the meaning of "Metaphysics" in the country you reside in or how the country treats/handles "Metaphysics" skills in their law books?
2) In US, you can call yourself a BAZI "Master" but not a BAZI "Professional".  You probably CANNOT label yourself as a BAZI "Expert" as well.
2) IMO, "Metaphyscis" only provide a guild and NEVER a solution(s). 
 
 

[callmenewbie]

Come on guys… CM can only provide a method to change a person. Not the tool itself. It depends on how the practitioners use this tool. And I only see one or two who knows how to use this. Most of them, nah… don’t want to talk about it.

No matter how we see using bazi or WWG or yijing for life changing, the most important part is, even feng shui tool that can change a person destiny a lot more that mentioned, they are many “teachers” giving out courses. I don’t think they even qualified to become a genuine practitioner, not to mentioned about giving people lessons. How many real cases they have handle and being trace the results? But ironically, people still learn from them, especially those who does earn some fame.

I mean why bother about licensed when someone out there already teaches how to use yijing in TCM or acupuncture? Does this guy have any licensed about medical line? Or does this guy even a TCM doctor? Or let’s not that demand, does this guy learn from his family who is or was a TCM doctor? In China, they are many powerful TCM who are not licensed but learn from family recipes. I think they did not even met this lowest qualification. And I think they may just have read a lot of books and started conducting classes. Don’t tell me using yijing on TCM or acupuncture is not changing a person life? It can hurt a person a lot, when it is misused. So do the person teaching this TCM body healing things or the person teaching feng shui that can make people life a lot worse licensed? Compare to those “teacher”, using bazi or WWG is nothing. Especially people who doesn’t understand how to use it as a tool to change people life. Knowing how to read Bazi, WWG or yijing is not knowing how to change a person’s life. Just like knowing how to drive doesn’t mean a person know how to handle the open wheel car.

[Gmuli]

In my humble view by the interpretation itself we will change the person.  So when we talk about solutions, for most of it I mean that same interpretation, so how to present the information so the person on the other side feels there is something that can be done. So they get a path instead of sentence.

We can't force change on people, of course, not only its not our job, but its not a good idea, anyway. But we can have deep understanding of that same simple interpretatino stage where we say what we read. Huge difference between saying someone will never marry, and someone can marry if specific circumstances happen and they respond to them in a good enough way.

One creates fear and disappointment, the other provides a path.
I do agree with callmenewbie that people in English speaking places rarely have good enough understanding of the systems to see the path they show. Although in here I think members are doing good enough job, so this place and some big schools, AK included and blogs and channels do help with that. And that is all we can do, in my humble view.

As far as the law is concerned... I think we gave up using any of this for income. Now the job is to minimize the spending, so we may close the site too, as its the biggest money waste and there are no paths to cover even that from all this.
So my current view is that using the system for family and very close friends is the only valid option. They work so well that this is still smoething worth it. And we don't need degree for that.
And for income - its a big world, there are many other ways, having a good divination system to help you can make it easier in any other profession. : )

[callmenewbie]

I don’t think we will learn anything more about WWG  further in the future. Many members here are already staying here for a very long time and probably noticed who is offering WWG. Members here write pros and cons about different master. What we all can see before the arrival of Master Alfred is already very limited as we just can see some basic WWG is offering, that makes us hungry for more, then Master Alfred brought WWG to us that bring up into another level. But then, he become quiet for a long time. People is complaining about that and I was wondering why he wasn’t that active anymore until I spoke with him. I though he was busy with something new for us. But it seems like he is about to leave English speaking learners behind. I’m not sure, but I feel like  he seems disappointing with the people who trying to learn WWG here. He still very active in Chinese speaking area, his students in China is growing more and more, but he just stop thing here. From what my limited understanding, if I don’t get him wrong, his intention is not to teach those who has a very limited knowledge about WWG or not knowing Chinese history or classical text backgrounds. These group of people get very easy in misunderstandings his teaching intention and method. People who try to learn from him only take a partly course that a member shared a link here before. I think should be something in Udemy. That platform is not a proper learning platform. It is only bits and pieces content from the overall beginner level. And those who follow him, we should more or less know that he has something much more bigger than beginners level. 4 or 5 levels in total to complete WWG. If we make it into math, beginner level is a content that contain only 20% of WWG. And the bits from Udemy, probably split it into 3% or 5%? It is a very superficial of WWG. So how do people that only learn very superficial can understand how WWG works? This remind me of a coke and Pepsi competition. Pepsi has a sip test, and everyone started to love Pepsi with just a sip. But actually, just a sip doesn’t represent a whole. That is why in the end. Pepsi still not able to convince their customers. But people just like to make a conclusion with “just a sip”. I hope I get the message wrong. Otherwise, bye bye WWG. I still remember his last word very clear before hang up the phone. “Sometimes when people don’t deserve nice thing. We can just leave. Not a problem.” What a shame. People just don’t understand they have missed out their perfect shot. so copy whatever we can before master Alfred deletes all his works.

[tyc]

IMO: Using soda sip test as an analogy to CM is a bad example: 1) Sip test was a tv marketing promotion, 2) The process used only a very small sample selections, 3) Most importantly, drinking a can of soda is a low expense compare to CM reading a person's destiny.  If someone has the resouces (this happened in the past), just put some of money in marketing and I'm sure more people will develop interest and get involve in CM.

Just like any money making market, if you have too many people getting involved, information becomes diliulated or I like to call it "Junk".  How does a person with limited income take on an interests that is expensive?  I'm sure there are successful CMs out there, but these people usually don't market themselves.  They are invited and not hired using word of mouth and typically don't take on new clients.

In the past, there were news in certain part of Calfornia (expenseive part of the United States) that a home needs to be Feng Shui certified inorder to be put in the market, otherwise no one would look at it.  I'm not sure if this news is still relevant today.  IMO, if anyone wants to make CM a success, start off with someone that is rich or focus on area that have a high concentration of rich people.

[Gmuli]

I will just say again same thing as we have on the site - we can recommend AK course to anyone intersted in WWG. Its very good. That is understatement, but yea.


His second book turned out was working as well.  Specifically in some places I mentioned that we couldn't get Loss and gain to work... Turns out Puppylove may have been right all along- we do need 2 Images. And the second Image for it can be from Self controling the Other line(Other line having image of Asset on it in relation to self line).

Why... Coz Asset is crystalizing from Output/Creativity. Basically is stopped flow from one field to the other. So it means someone sees somethign as valuable and the flow stops. That 'grasping' can bring the otehr Image.


I do genuinely think if AK moves away from English speaking world, there will be huge gap between people that learned there, even with the limited info there and ones that did in other places.
No matter if we use professionally or for our family and friends there is understanding there that people interested in WWG wouldn't want to miss, in my humble opinion. : )

[ren]

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[Gmuli]

I can't comment much more on this. Its really not a sphere of all this I have researched much or am good at. As I mentioned we aren't doing it professionally. Currently, we don't have any plans to do it professionally. We tried, though. We had great plans, to make the site a hub for different masters and clients. Releasing android apps to help the Five Arts by bringing in people that are not familiar with them, but can see them working day to day. And much more...
Then 10 years passed, we saw we haven't even covered the low price of the hosting of the site and of course, all this is out of the question now. Concusion was with our approach this doens't provide path forward professionally, yet still can be done for fun or to learn interesting stuf.

The Five Arts aspect of all this is mostly for fun now. And potentially to learn something curious. Or to make some collaboration with no strings attached to help a channel or a blog out there. But nothing more, so spending more in there for courses, is not an option.

Even if that courses are suppose to tell us how to do this professionally. Something that, as already explained we don't plan to do, anymore. : )

So can't really help here.

I'm focusing on other stuff now that I may do professionally... Although I doubt it. I think one more thing that comes in the future will likely be the thing I settle on. : )

[tyc]

My 2 cents:  Treat this as a hobby.  From this hobby try to solve a task (subjective) and not find a solution (objective).  Bill Gate developed "DOS" before "Microsoft".

[Gmuli]

I think there is another interesting aspect to this. Karma.
Lets say we do this profesionally and get many clients a day.
And for example one wants to demolish 2 schools and a hospital to build a casino. And we do think that is not beneficial to the place he will do it in(lets say small city - no other hospitals or enough schools nearby).
Yet we help them with advice on how they can do this in the most cheap way, as that is what they ask.And we do want to get paid.

Do people believe that this choice will matter for us?It will for the people living there...
So have we done something good?We did get paid, and it seems that is important in the Five Arts...
And lets assume we do get paid a lot.

So I wonder what members think. Did they believe in karma or of some form of feedback from reality about the choices we are making and what would they expect to follow after a choice like this(the kind I assume a paid practitioner may have to make a lot).

P.S. Just curious, but seems nice change of directions, as the professional aspects does include that point as well(can't chase out too many people or there can't be practice going).
P.S.S. Similar question was asked in a very respected healer in one of the healing systems I respect. His answer was that its not our place to judge, the system will take care of it by itself. And I fully agree, but this is different, as healthier people take better choices for the community in the long run, but in this case, we aren't helping anyone get healthier, we directly choose with the systems outcome of that specific choice and situation.

[JLim (Darma W)]

P.S.S. Similar question was asked in a very respected healer in one of the healing systems I respect. His answer was that its not our place to judge, the system will take care of it by itself.

I agree with this.  Note that it's important that we are confident and proficient enough with the system that we use to help this client.

And I fully agree, but this is different, as healthier people take better choices for the community in the long run, but in this case, we aren't helping anyone get healthier, we directly choose with the systems outcome of that specific choice and situation.

It depends on our own behavior as practitioner and human.  For example, we can do good karma by using some of the obtained fees for health projects, however big or small they may be. The casino project does not cancel this good deed

Lets say we do this profesionally and get many clients a day.
And for example one wants to demolish 2 schools and a hospital to build a casino. And we do think that is not beneficial to the place he will do it in (lets say small city - no other hospitals or enough schools nearby).

Let's not judge.  It's not our advice that he/she demolish the schools and hospital for this project.