Hidden Lines

[Gmuli]

I am wondering what other members found working for them for when the hidden lines(or hiding spirit etc) comes out.

Initially I started with Jacks Chius idea. There he presents some rules, stuff like if the flying spirit(visible line on top of the hidden) produces the hidden, then the hidden line comes out.
Or that if the day clashes the visible line the hidden line comes out etc.
Didn't seem to work great.
Since then I've tested other set of rules and, so far haven't found anything working stable neough to be worth considering.

The only thing that seems obvious is that hidden line comes out if the line its hidden behind is in void.
Yet this is just one rule and there seems to be more, yet in practice I find it more accurate to consider that this is the only situation where the hidden lines come out and I don't think I have had cases where it seemed obvious the line would be there yet I missed it.

But it seems wise idea to make some reality check with other members, maybe someone is using some interesting rule that I missed? : )

[Tientai ✝️]

Long before  i was trying to translate this on another forum ..
Forgive me if some mistakes .. i think the General meaning is correct. .
神出与不出
When Fushen come out and when not ...

    是以定吉凶者在乎时，分轻重者存乎力，有伏而出，有伏而不出，当研之也。
In order to determine good or bad fortune one involved, to distinguish the severity and strength, ( focus ) on fushen if going to exit, if fushen is not going to exit, we ought to study all this.

时谓日月也，力谓得日月生扶也。
Designate period of month and day, the ability to say properly (if ) the month and day giving birth for support accordingly.

1.伏神全出。
1. Fushen completely go out

伏神能全出有四种情况即：
The Fushen completely go out have four type circumstances namely:
飞生之伏、飞助之伏、飞空之伏，及伏克飞。
Fei (shen) gives birth to it, The fei (shen) assist fu (shen), fei (shen) is empty (kong), and when  fu (shen) subdue fei (shen)

甲、飞来生伏，谓飞生之伏；
1.Fei (shen) come to give birth, meaning Fei (shen) give birth to fushen
乙、飞伏比和，谓飞助之伏；
2.  Fei (shen) and fu (shen) are near each other harmoniously. Meaning Fei (shen) assist Fu (shen)
丙、飞值旬空，伏爻易出，谓飞空之伏，但是飞爻旬空而遇日冲，若冲实则不出。
3. Fei (shen) is in empty period (Kong),then  the Fu (shen) line is moving out, however if Feishen when in empty period (Kong) is clashed by the day (branch) this clash does not help to make {Fushen ) go out.
丁、伏克飞爻，为暴出，即使飞爻状态是破死墓，伏爻也能出，但是在伏爻绝于飞爻的情况下伏爻飞爻也不能出。
4.  Fushen that subdue Feishen, behaving this way violently (can ) go out, even if Fei line is in situation to fall in grave, fushen have the capacity to go out, however when fushen line is vanishing from feishen yao realy under these circumstances ether fushen or feishen line cannot {have the ability} to go out..?

[Gmuli]

Thanks.
This is similar to what I was using before, though.
If the hidden lines control the line on top of it it will go out... Yet I'm not sure it works like that in practice.

Will look for old examples when I can and see if I can show it clearly enough. : )

[Gmuli]

Long before  i was trying to translate this on another forum ..
Forgive me if some mistakes .. i think the General meaning is correct. .
神出与不出
When Fushen come out and when not ...

    是以定吉凶者在乎时，分轻重者存乎力，有伏而出，有伏而不出，当研之也。
In order to determine good or bad fortune one involved, to distinguish the severity and strength, ( focus ) on fushen if going to exit, if fushen is not going to exit, we ought to study all this.

时谓日月也，力谓得日月生扶也。
Designate period of month and day, the ability to say properly (if ) the month and day giving birth for support accordingly.

1.伏神全出。
1. Fushen completely go out

伏神能全出有四种情况即：
The Fushen completely go out have four type circumstances namely:
飞生之伏、飞助之伏、飞空之伏，及伏克飞。
Fei (shen) gives birth to it, The fei (shen) assist fu (shen), fei (shen) is empty (kong), and when  fu (shen) subdue fei (shen)

甲、飞来生伏，谓飞生之伏；
1.Fei (shen) come to give birth, meaning Fei (shen) give birth to fushen
乙、飞伏比和，谓飞助之伏；
2.  Fei (shen) and fu (shen) are near each other harmoniously. Meaning Fei (shen) assist Fu (shen)
丙、飞值旬空，伏爻易出，谓飞空之伏，但是飞爻旬空而遇日冲，若冲实则不出。
3. Fei (shen) is in empty period (Kong),then  the Fu (shen) line is moving out, however if Feishen when in empty period (Kong) is clashed by the day (branch) this clash does not help to make {Fushen ) go out.
丁、伏克飞爻，为暴出，即使飞爻状态是破死墓，伏爻也能出，但是在伏爻绝于飞爻的情况下伏爻飞爻也不能出。
4.  Fushen that subdue Feishen, behaving this way violently (can ) go out, even if Fei line is in situation to fall in grave, fushen have the capacity to go out, however when fushen line is vanishing from feishen yao realy under these circumstances ether fushen or feishen line cannot {have the ability} to go out..?

I checked a lot of examples... This actually do seem to work, thank you!

[ren]

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[Gmuli]

I would read it that you will be supported by the people around you.
With the white tiger, maybe people with western medicine knowledge?

Alternatively, Tientai in one of the other topics used sibling as immunity, that seems logical.
So if we take sibling as immunity, or as general health condition, we can say that you are healthy enough so all this isn't as big problem as it could have been for someone else.

[Sacrar]

2.  Fei (shen) and fu (shen) are near each other harmoniously. Meaning Fei (shen) assist Fu (shen)

Nice post. this part what does it mean if both earthly branches combine and generate each other? for example Hai-Yin?

[Tientai ✝️]

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[ren]

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[Sacrar]

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[ren]

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[Gmuli]

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[ren]

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[JLim]

Using ren's Shoulder Injury hexagram for the hidden line discussion:
https://www.bright-hall.net/wwg/23,0,1,1,0,0,0,8,2,2020-06-11,11:33/

We all agree that Fifth line Sibling Shen does come out.  But from which criteria in the classics does Shen come out?  I see none!

伏神能全出有四种情况即：
飞生之伏、飞助之伏、飞空之伏，及伏克飞。
There are four ways the Hidden spirit (FuShen) can come out:
The Flying spirit births the Hidden spirit.
The Flying spirit assist the Hidden spirit.
The Flying spirit is in Kong.
The Hidden spirit controls (restrains) the Flying Spirit.

In ren's hexagram, the Hidden Spirit (Shen) produces the Flying spirit (Zi)...

[Gmuli]

I don't view it that Shen comes out. I view it as people hidden behind showing support(western medicine doctor, or sport related friend etc). Perfectly fitting the idea hidden line shows support when producing without coming to the front.

Would agree Shen comes out if Ren went in a place where other people took care of him, as then other people would be in the front, while he would take Child position just resting. As that could be a resting vacation thing(people can do that for injury in parts of the world), could be a hospital for a few days or something similar.