Fivearts.org

Author Topic: Doubts regarding the influence of the changed line on the line of origin  (Read 148 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Sacrar

Hey, here are some noob questions that have been on my mind and seem confusing and somewhat contradictory.

All hexagrams are sample examples and do not represent real queries.

First a couple of quotes from J. Chiu about origining active line (yuan dong-yao) and changed lines (bian yao):


Quote
- The changed line will have the ability to impose of the four effects, vitalization (sheng), devitalization (ke), opposition (chong) and conjunction (He) onto its origining active line or yuan dong-yao.

- Since they are caused by the change of active line, there is no interactions among the changed lines. They are also not subjected to effects from the active line or the invisible line

- The originating active line will lose its ability to impose effects onto any other lines when it is being the opposite of its own changed line. It is know as returning opposition or Hui Tou Chong.



1. First scenario. The changed line drains the source line.
 
Fire drains to wood.

can the changed line actually drain the sourcce line? Can this be considered a devitalisation effect?





2. Second scenario. The changed line insults the original line

By insulting it, wouldn't that devitalise its line of origin?






3. Third scenario. The changed line exerts opposition effect (chong)


This is the only case where it is clear that the changed line exerts an effect on its line of origin caused by the opposition.

 J. Chiu quote:
Quote
the originating active line will lose its ability to impose effects onto any other lines when it is being the opposite of its own changed line. It is know as returning opposition or Hui Tou Chong

We see in this case that the changed lines exert opposition and it is assumed that opposition in itself exerts some kind of devitalisation effect. But it is a bit counter-intuitive since it is the You metal that controls (devitalises) the Mao wood, and it is the Hai water that controls (devitalises) the Si fire.
And as J. chiu says:


Quote
there is no interactions among the changed lines. They are also not subjected to effects from the active line.

So what happens here? the chong of the changed line on its source line is not equivalent to insulting? if in this case the changed line is insulting its source line and causing an effect on it, why in scenario 2 it does not happen?


I would appreciate some clarification on this issue.
Thanks you.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 11:46:28 PM by Sacrar »

Online Gmuli

Look in real life. All this is made by observation of how events unfold in real life. There are single ways all this moves through. I won't go into specifics, as I said I avoid writing about WWG now, but will only say that all this is made observing real life changes. Then often it was passed through many generations until it has lost much meaning today, for different reasons.

While at other places it seems its provided by steps, so its easier for the practitioner to get accustomed to see something then that is expanded. Since we have different authors providing different steps, again becomes important to observe for yourself and trim and expand the rules where that is vital.

If you want it to work, you have to observe how that works in real life. And it isn't difficult. You have someone very enthusiastic that moves in a way that that enthusiasm is lost now. Will they interact with their original view?Will they interact with other changes in the situation and people here?More importantly if they dont' interact from their changes position, then why is that?As without understanding that the rule is more a hindrance then help.

For any single situation where that type of change is present it has to have the same effect and movement. So you only need to see it once then maybe adjust a few times if there are exceptions and often there are, but just few.

There is a single answer to all that and if you spend some time observing you will find it.
Some years ago we have been through many of these around the forums, though, but the essence is the same for me - wise to observe real life events to make good rules. Then use whatever you arrive at. The base stuff is same, as well, so just about details on interactions.



Offline ren

[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]

Online JLim

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2851
  • Total likes: 2205
  • Gender: Male
  • MANGPAI BAZI TEACHER-CONSULTANT (Blindman School)
    • View Profile
    • JLim School of Bazi
Quote
there is no interactions among the changed lines (A). They are also not subjected to effects from the active line (B).
Please look at the attached real hexagram from my recent divination for a client.
Example A:
1st and 5th changed lines Zi cannot produce 6th changed line Yin
Example B:
6th changed line Yin cannot be produced by 6th active line Zi
5th changed line Zi cannot be overcome by 5th active line Xu
1st changed line Zi cannot be overcome by 1st active line Wei

Offline Sacrar

[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 11:55:51 PM by Sacrar »

Offline ren

Hi Sarcar,

Quote
Injure or Harm is something other than an Insult?
Yes

Quote
What is it?
I am going to ask @JLim to answer this question (if he has time).

ren




Online JLim

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2851
  • Total likes: 2205
  • Gender: Male
  • MANGPAI BAZI TEACHER-CONSULTANT (Blindman School)
    • View Profile
    • JLim School of Bazi
The term "Insult" to describe the interactions that Sacrar just described is correct. I don't think we can use the term "Injure" or "Harm". Injure or Harm refers to You and Xu, Zi and Wei, Wu and Chou etc.. 

Anyway, we don't use these these Harm interactions in Liu Yao, but we do in Bazi.

 

Powered by EzPortal