Fivearts.org

Author Topic: Why Doesn't The Bazi Seasons Change For People Born In The Southern Hemisphere?  (Read 11517 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline herut

Hello,

I was asked a question recently regarding if the Bazi Season Structure changed for people in the southern hemisphere. When I say season from the perspective of what I've been taught, Summer=Fire, Earth= Transitional Period, Metal= Autumn, Water= Winter, and Wood= Spring. So why doesn't translate when calculating Bazi Charts? Right now it's winter in the Northern Hemisphere and Summer in the Southern Hemisphere, shouldn't the month branch reflect this?

Offline Gmuli

This is one of these questions, like "how to calculate strength of DM", or how to find facing/sitting in Flying Star.
While it is something that everyone seems to be doing, when it comes to clear explanation that usually doesn't seem to work so well...
In this specific case, its similar problem. Everyone will have their own view to it and in other times and places we have gone in great details about that... But at the end if you need it practically, I would advice just make 2 charts check events and choose whatever seems to reflect it better. If you don't need it practically, just forget about it, it's always a mess to go into in forums, for some reason even though in my view its very simple and clear if we look how the Solar Calendar works.

Online Rapanui

So why doesn't translate when calculating Bazi Charts?
Well, well, well...
so if you are in Singapore (1N16) there is summer but if you are in Padang (1S39) there is winter ! ;D ;) 8)

Regards, RapaNui
Rapanui Poland

Offline Gmuli

From what we know so far BaZi practitioners there do invert the branches(multiple examples from chart read in the other forums and all of them month branches were inverted). Now, how that will fit the equator and the zones near it is something that there have never been any studies as far as I'm aware, so its difficult to guess.

Even if we decide to say that practitioners there just don't know what they are doing, the idea in the shortest day of the year, in freezing cold with snow falling all around us, to look around and proudly say "Ahh... Wu horse month is all around us again." ...
Especially when we use True Solar Time(and that is basically positioning Wu Horse branch in the middle of the highest position of the Sun(Noon), to reflect the real nature situation)...

So when it comes to time we reflect the length of the day setting the strongest Fire branch in the middle of Noon, but when it comes to the year... Of course not, BaZi shows what it shows, its universal and any adjustments are unnecessary... Doesn't seem to make much sense, does it?

« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 11:12:08 AM by Gmuli »

Offline herut

So would you just adjust the Month Branch? Or the Heavenly Stem As well?

Offline Gmuli

So would you just adjust the Month Branch? Or the Heavenly Stem As well?


Well, lets think about it logically. Right now, we can look at the BaZi all around the Earth. At this specific time, so much like the globe has frozen and we view how they would view the hour pillar in the lighter and darker half(dividing them vertically, as the day and night does).
As there are different time zones, the further a place is from the Sun, the more closer to Zi Rat branch it will move. The closer it is to Noon(Sun in its highest position in the day) the closer to Wu branch it will be.

This we do already, it comes with the idea of Time zones. So we already compensate for the different places of the globe, otherwise right now in Hawaii it will be same time as it is in EU.
It is not, however. Right now, where I am is around 18, while in Hawaii will be around 6 am.
To compensate for the light we have made time zones, we say it is night in Hawaii, so the BaZi reflects that as well.

We move both - stem and branch to fit into 6 am in the morning for Hawaii.
While it is still 18 PM here and in here we do have both stem and branch reflecting that.

All this is dividing the globe vertically. The darker half we say is night and the timezones and hours are showing to what degrees it is night. Same for the lighter one.
Summary - solar time adjustment we set Zi Rat in the middle of midnight and Wu horse at Noon dividing the whole globe vertically and looking at the light from the Sun.

Making the same horizontally and again it makes all the logic in the world we will move both stem and branch, as this is what we are doing when making the same alignment for True Solar Time.
Now, horizontally the movement away from the Sun is because of the 23 degree tilt the Earth has, however it is exactly as real as day/night cycles, as we can see in the seasons.

Now, if you aren't using True Solar TIme, it won't make much sense to invert the branches for the seasons as well. If you are, it makes sense to be both as when adjusting the time we move both.

Offline The-Monk

Question:

If I replace Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water, with Sour, Bitter, Sweet, Pungent and Salty; in short, the Five Elements with Five Tastes instead.

Would you still need to change the Seasons to match?

Offline herut

If Inverting the month pillar is the issue, then I would say yes. Because the month represents a season, and if the season in the North is deep winter Rat, and the season in the South in the highest point of summer (Wu like conditions) but has a Rat pillar, then I think its inconsistent. Unless we get rid of the seasonal approach to Bazi altogether. As far as the flavors go, I don't think that really gets into this conversation much.

Offline PdStelle

I find the flavour example very enlightening: the chart describes the person, not the weather.This is what I understand :)

Offline Gmuli

Question:

If I replace Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water, with Sour, Bitter, Sweet, Pungent and Salty; in short, the Five Elements with Five Tastes instead.

Would you still need to change the Seasons to match?

I don't think the tastes fit very well. The colors of the foods either. White foods are metal, in theory, great, but when we have so many exceptions, because of taste or other factors, then it isn't a rule, its just trying to use a system on a framework that doesn't really fit into it.

So no, at their practical use doesn't seem to fit very well to reality and it seems just approximation, so a familiar division can be used somewhere else, it wouldn't be needed. Just my view, of course and I don't know a lot about the practical aspect of the five elements in food.

However, the light from the Sun seems to be playing some role in all this.

I get the idea of using what is presented, but outside of QMDJ and most of Yi Jing I don't think what is presented should be taken right away. We already make calculation, make stems/branches etc. so it already isn't taken right away, we now are clearing out how much steps are needed to arrive at what is presented, but no one takes it as it is.

Members in the old forum that seem to have connection to the blind schools were strongly supporting the idea hour pillar shouldn't be adjusted.
I guess the idea was BaZi chart was taken like we take a Hexagram for example. We use what comes to us.

That was one thing that bothered me for a while, as if they are doing it there had to be more behind it. However, with time and rereading the examples some other explanation started to become more likely.
If we look into the examples they read, it seems there was always a carefulness when it came to the hour. Often the assumption the hour may be wrong and trying to find the more suitable one...
Now, if we just take whatever is given, there shouldn't ever be finding more suitable hour, as the one presented should always be correct. If we look for more suitable one or assume it may not be correct means we already think underneath it all that there is more correct hour, we just don't want to start with that idea right away.

While if adjusting the solar time is correct, then people working without adjusting it, but can read the charts well, will be very careful when working with the hour and it will show up exactly in this way. They are skipping a step in the system and trying to compensate for it, but the step is as important as all the others, just difficult to calculate without a lot of math.
Again would make sense to be skipped by blind practitioners, as calculating True Solar Time without software is more challenging.  So rules like this are logical to come up.

Same counts for WWG, that would make rules like "don't read hexagrams around midnight" etc. The reason would be that they aren't adjusting, but they are clearly seeing around midnight(where the solar time adjustment would count for WWG), something won't be right.

So basically both groups, the people that don't agree with Solar Time,but can read charts well and the people that do, seems to be adjusting it, just in different ways.  As I said in my view month adjustment is same as Solar Time one, its just for month branches instead of the hour. And is less popular as so much fewer people are in the other hemisphere then they are in other timezones.

And even if we forget all that, we can just think of what the Solar Terms are suppose to represent.
Imagine in Solar Term:

22.Winter solstice 冬至 or "Winter begins" as it is sometimes translated.

How much sense it makes to be in "Winter begins" and "Winter Solstice" Solar Term, when all around you its  Summer Solstice and the start of Summer as it is in the other hemisphere...

So even if we use what is presented, what is presented is the beginning of Winter even in the Solar Term names and its starting place for its longitude/place of the Sun as well. If we are somewhere where the Summer just started, it should make some sense to think is this what is actually presented or the system need another layer of movement to be fully ready for use.


« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 11:26:20 AM by Gmuli »

Offline Gmuli

I find the flavour example very enlightening: the chart describes the person, not the weather.This is what I understand :)

Using random information to get to a conclusion is all well and good.
But BaZi charts aren't random. Solar terms start with equinoxes and solstices, hour pillar is reflecting the changes of day to night etc.

We can say this things aren't related, but then we aren't practicing five arts, we are just guessing while finding meaning in  info that we view as meaningless. That can also work. But not everyone would agree the calendar is meaningless and is only used to provide random info we can use that isn't related to anything.

Offline Tientai ✝️

  • ✝️ IN MEMORIAM
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 977
  • Total likes: 1042
  • Gender: Male
  • Mangpai-Foundation-Course student
    • View Profile
Let's suppose that an observer in Northern hemisphere .. And it is 22 December and at 24: 00 ... looking at Northern sky, then the Ladder of the Big Dipper has taken the unique downward position pointing to  earth ... This also determines the start of the Winter Solstice. Solar term.
the point it shows is the Astrological earthly branch Zi water ...

if another observer on Southern hemisphere (on the same longitude with first observer) could see (probably couldn't see Northern stars) with some way the same hour and month would notice the same direction of the Ladder as the viewer on Northern hemisphere. !!!
It is reasonable that next earthly branches are the same for both hemispheres on months. .. the "Celestial Clock is what determines and influences  these Universal positions of Earthy Branches on 28 constellations ... and not by the Hemispheres of the Earth (rather Earth is influenced by them) !! ".
...
Tientai
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:19:51 AM by Tientai »

Offline herut

Let's suppose that an observer in Northern hemisphere .. And it is 22 December and at 24: 00 ... looking at Northern sky, then the Ladder of the Big Dipper has taken the unique downward position pointing to  earth ... This also determines the start of the Winter Solstice. Solar term.
the point it shows is the Astrological earthly branch Zi water ...

if another observer on Southern hemisphere (on the same longitude with first observer) could see (probably couldn't see Northern stars) with some way the same hour and month would notice the same direction of the Ladder as the viewer on Northern hemisphere. !!!
It is reasonable that next earthly branches are the same for both hemispheres on months. .. the "Celestial Clock is what determines these Universal positions of Earthy Branches ... and not the Hemispheres of the Earth !! ".
...
Tientai


But the southern observer would not be experiencing the Winter Solstice, it would be experiencing the Summer Solstice. So, how do the qualities associated with Rat, for example, apply to the Southern Observer during a Rat Month?

Offline Tientai ✝️

  • ✝️ IN MEMORIAM
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 977
  • Total likes: 1042
  • Gender: Male
  • Mangpai-Foundation-Course student
    • View Profile
But the southern observer would not be experiencing the Winter Solstice, it would be experiencing the Summer Solstice. So, how do the qualities associated with Rat, for example, apply to the Southern Observer during a Rat Month?

.... Frankly speaking my opinion is in accordance to Ancient Chinese thesis and Masters of CM...!!!
Many researches must conduct in this new Age... for Southern Hemisphere.
Very significant is the research of W.K. Chu  in appendix of his book "The astrology of I ching"
.....
Tientai
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:09:49 PM by Tientai »

Offline herut

I have that book. I'm going to revisit it.

 

Powered by EzPortal