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Gmuli

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Tarot and the paths
« on: January 02, 2024, 02:03:06 PM »
Lets try to explain some of the Tarot Major Arcana cards, using Five Arts terminology.

Here is nice image(someone made it some years ago, no idea who, but can't find it in the net now). Based on a book I've mention before. Long story there and we will skip it for now:


If we look at the 3 Pillars(left, middle and right) we can see left and right pillars each carry 3 circles.
So there are 3 sets of circles, lower, middle and upper on the left and right all named on the image.
The circles are called Sephirot, plural and Sephira when singular.
Lets look at the middle 2 on the left and right.
One is marked in the image as Mercy and the other is called Severity.

Someday when the app is out there is more info on that, but Severity is called Jue Ming in the Five Arts, 8 mansions context, while Mercy is called Six Killings.
In Kabbalah Mercy is called Chesed. That means kindness.
Severity is called Gevurah, sometimes also called Pahat, meaning Fear.
So the idea here is that is human level. That is Qi level. Lower is Jing(essence), upper is Shen(spirit) and this is Qi.
The base polarity here is between Gevurah and Chesed. Severity and mercy, fear and kindness.

Practitioners of Kabbalah used to wear a cloth around their right hand. The reason for that is to withhold severity, as somehwere along the way, similar to Five Arts practitioners when looking at Jue Ming, they realized it was the most harmful influence for complex reason.
And that is basically the Human part of the "influences", with Heaven at the higher 2, and with Earth at the lower 2.

Since we are looking at the 8 houses, we can also already say that Gevurah is carrying Images of Metal.
We can write a lot more here, but lets go back to the cards. Justice is the card that carries the path from Gevurah to Chesed.
So if we want the middle Dan Dien to be in balance, we need "judgment".

Its interesting that Six Killings is viewed as something bad in the Five Arts. However, we do agree with the overall assesment, and while there are changes and nuances, and more practical stuff, our explanatation has 2 parts. One is for later, the other is that Six Killings is viewed as bad, because too much openess to people(espesially to strangers) can shake a family. Then Gevurah is needed(severity/fear) and it goes back in balance.

Looking at the card Judgment, that is on that path, that judgment, how open to be with people, when severity is needed, when it has to be avoided etc. that is playing with this polarity Gevurah/Jue Ming and Chesed(Six Killings).

Too open, and one will get experience aimed at closing them a little(fear usually), too severe and one will get all sorts of problems from being alone combined with more, from the whole influence being broken(long story there).
So that is Judgment. Its how open to be with people, mostly. Although all on middle dan dien"qi level" is basically same category of judgment. : )

The biggest problem in the Five Arts, in my humble view, is the way they use severity. Its not suppose to be used in tha strong way, that is like empowering the Jue Ming sectors of the house. Its not very healthy.
Of course, some aim to get authority with Severity, and here the name "Pahat/Fear comes into play". Equally unhealthy, however, as the price is too much for any authority gained, in most cases.

When we get it in a reading, it basically means one has to adjust and figure out how open they have to be, often with other people. Can also be warning one is too open, or too severe/closed. Adjustment may be needed.

Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2024, 09:26:13 PM »
Lets cover 2 more cards. : )
This will be The Tower and Strength.
2 more because its kinda mean to leave it at this path, could become clear why soon.

This will cover the paths from Gevurah and Chesed to Tiphareth.
The 3 are viewed as a "moral" aspect of it and in my humble view we can view them as the "Qi"/Man/Middle Line portion of it all.
On the Tree we can see that as Severity and Mercy on the Left and Right Pillar merging into Beauty.

We will view Tiphareth/Beauty as the Stability/Identity influence from 8 mansions.
Can also view it as the Center of the Tree, Heavens Heart, I am Presence or whatever we decide to call the center.

So far we viewed Judgment as the path from Chesed to Gevurah and the other way around...
Suggesting that one is trying to make unbiased choice, as objective as possible of when to be open and when to close a connection.

The thing here is that, similar to human law system, that choice is 'non personal' in a way. For the judgment to be objective, the personality, the persons itself is the attempt to be not influencing it. Similar to a Judge in a court room, they would be trying to keep their own history aside, and if they have history with the people there, they will renounce their role and other judge will take it.
The idea here is that that is how judgment can attempt to be more fair.

However, the other 2 paths, Tower and Strength are what happens when the personality doesn't really stay aside, but is the base of that judgment.
And that is viewed as 2 types of 'strength'.
One is strength of kindness. From I Am presence/Beauty path to Chesed suggest ones personality is opening up. From Chesed to Beauty, suggest one was open and now is finding their center in the middle of it.

Very nice images and here the card is Strength. As the commanding/balancing aspect of Qi level interaction.

The Tower, shows the other aspect of it. That is either from Severity to I am, or from I am to Severity.
In both cases, the "lone" personality that is cut off and all it has build will need to brake apart, so the person can end up where they are supposed to.
Severity to I Am, suggest someone long cut off and reached extreme choices and position, moving to their center. To do that, much of what was separating them from everyone else breaks apart, in that path.
The other direction, from I am moving to Severity, suggest one that was in balance in the center, is getting out of it in a cruel/severe/fearful way. In here moving through that path all accumulated and surrounding them will brake apart time after time again, while walking it until they arrive at Severity and that is not incidentally called "Life Threatening" in 8 mansions, not by accident, and in that pure polarity of it is so destructive every moment spend in it, that its a pure reliving of the Tower.

The Tower, suggests destruction of what "personality"/identity of the person has accumulated. Either as they move back to the center and what was gained in severity was meaningless, or as they move to severity, and until they stop nothing they have can be kept.
Depending where one was, should be obvious what direction the path will take from the reading.
Strength, similarity either suggests someone is opening up, after long being in Peach Blossom state, or after being among people they started to connect to their center/I am presence.
Both really nice and again, depending where we were, should be easy to recognize what the cart is showing as a path.

As we can see the direct path from Gevurah and Chesed suggests personality is out of it. Involving it, its either the destruction of personality, one way or another(either merging with people in Chesed, or cutting off all that made the personality in the first place at Gevurah).
In that sense - The Tower and Strength are 2 ways of using Strength. One is step by step in connection to it all and opening up. The other are forceful bursts, as one is falling deeper and deeper within.


This may actually work inside a house as well, but more on that another time. Here one may ask - great in theory, but why does it matter in practice?

It matters, because this "paths" are activated and "walked" in different situations. The clearer there are, the less affected by things like Jue Ming we will be. The easier we can balance it out and recognize and expect it as well.

So when we say "balancing" the chart, we mean work with the paths creating the influences, balance our understanding and experience there, and then instead of "going against the chart" , we will utilize it often in ways one wouldn't expect possible.
In a way, is like "training" for the actual situation, by "emptying out" whatever part of the influence would create more tension then it needs to.

Then the question becomes, we can do it with 8 mansions can we do it with bazi?
And I would say yes, in theory, but in practice it needs to be exactly the same influences.
Its easy to just say Severity is 7K and Chesed is DO and while that may be true, for this to work we have to be absolutely sure of more, as often the Images on the surface come from culture and in depth they change...

Yet lets say someone has tendency to "lose" themselves in 7k or DO.
That may be DM falling in Tomb, or moving to join big combination there etc.

One, in theory, could meditate starting with the Image of them walking into the card(7K would be path from Identity to Severity, so The Tower) or reading more about the card if they can't meditate etc.
If its DO would be Strength , card.

Then explore, see what one can see, if there are parts one is trying to avoid, facing them is easier in the card then in life, as one can summon support etc.
Overall, playing with that is nice for connection with our less aware processes going on below it all. They respond when we call them and always are on our side, so its a opportunity that is always there, as well.

Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2024, 03:19:45 PM »
Seems good to clarify that when we view the 8 mansions influences, from the open sources not everywhere will have good description of what they do, so may be confusing.
Kevin Chans material in youtube is great, especially, about Jue Ming:
https://www.youtube.com/c/KevinChanBazi
Also great source here:
https://xkfs.art/
Has very nice articles for other stuff and the 24 mountain connection(we haven't worked with that, but I do think of adding it, as its in multiple places now and seems wise to add, although we can't comment much on it at this point).

The descriptions are still the same, we just try to add the balancing aspect, Jue Ming balancing Liu Sha and the other one and to try to give a more precise definition, however outside of that the practical parts are still the same as far as Feng Shui is applied and they are develop there in a great way.
So it isn't exactly new, its just expanded a little in some places and connected to other systems.

While Path working and the other stuff, that is just used in Kabbalah, nothing new there, either, so again - just a connection, of stuff already there. : )
Although we do change the meaning of Sephirot a little, in there(Kabbalah) what I have seen as the practical aspect is too far off in some parts.

Offline throosden

Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2024, 01:56:41 PM »
Very interesting stuff.

With judgement you mean justice right?

Because judgment is path from wisdom to understanding.

Not 100% clear how to use this with 8 mansions though.

I lost focus on all the kabalistic stuff but I must say reading this ... the tree is intriguing  :)

Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2024, 04:02:33 PM »
Not 100% clear how to use this with 8 mansions though.

Do you want to?We can go into it if you do. Kinda complex, though.

Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2024, 10:15:29 AM »
Here we go, human level axis explained, the other 2 are kinda obvious from it:

https://bright-hall.blogspot.com/2024/02/8-mansions-part-2.html

How to use with the information above...
Well, the cards become paths between 8 mansions influences now. Have trouble with jue Ming, project through the Towers from that part of the house to Fu Wei, or maybe just walk in the house, haven't tested. And should be able to clear up whatever resistances are coming up.

Have better Images with it now, as well. And most importantly, while the classical and modern approaches are still valid, of 4 beneficial influences, now we can see the other 4 are not "not beneficial", they are mend to balance each other out.
Whatever goes out of balance can be corrected with the opposite influences.

And we use that a lot, its soo good...

No idea why there isn't more enthusiasm for all this. I find it very useful and beneficial and can't see any problem with it... May seem like a big change, but it isn't really, base ideas stay the same.

Offline throosden

Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2024, 10:49:03 AM »
Still trying to make sense of the whole thing  ;D. Didn't play around that much with 8 mansions feng shui. Also not with kabbalah and pathworking.

Guess that already makes it a bit more difficult to understand.

But still super interesting to read how these systems could maybe combine together.

But currently trying to figure out some of Grays writings .

Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2024, 03:40:01 PM »
Aha, I get that. Gray... Well he has his own problems, though. : )
For Tarot, in my humble view, you may need just a few pages, from
Growing the Tree Within/The Living Tree, all there is few pages below:

Quote
"1.Cosmic Ideas.Moon, Sun and Stars, or reaching from Earth to Outer Space in that order."

And from Language of the Gods:
Quote
Or the Good (Cups), the Bad (Swords), Obligations (Coins), and Opportunities (Rods).

And the Card/Sephira in each world thing below.

The rest, I believe he was well meaning, but it won't really work. He thinks the alphabet doesn't matter, but Hebrew is geometric, there are places people study in great lengths how its made, there are golden mean spirals that move on the inside of fields and stuff... So they call them "fire letters" , as its viewed by the sides of a tetrahedron...
Can't do the same in English.

And the Tree... They didn't really understood it in my view. Not that we do, but at least we aren't piling on top of each sephira as much crap as we can think of.
Anyway, just this few pages is all I meant as needed for Tarot.
It just happens on other sources it won't work, this framework will work, but, as you will see its short. Few sentences for each card at most. The idea is to unfold the rest with meditation/experience.

I'm reading a lot of Kabbalah, lately. I stopped for many years, long time ago, so didn't knew how much is in the open now. There is more. But it isn't really enough, from what I've seen so far.

In my humble view, reading more about the Tree may just be confusing. May be wiser to use it either with 8 mansions influences or with Planets.

That would be

Gevurah - Jue Ming - Mars
Chesed - Liu Sha - Jupiter
Tifered - Fu Wei - Sun
Yan Nian - Yesod - Moon

Huo Hai - Hod - Mercury
Wu Gui  - Netzah - Venus

Binah - Saturn - Tian Yi
Chohma - Uranus - Shen Qi
Kether - Galactic Core - Heavens Heart/Middle

Chohma may not fit , perfectly in all cases, but the rest are perfect. Also good way to attribute the planets to the 8 mansions influences, as the other attributions I have seen, doesn't fit in how they are used in astrology in practice.


I'm working on finding out the minimum sources that will be enough to learn the tree, but its going on slowly. Currently, would just recommend either learn the 8 mansions descriptions from JY and Kevin Chan and use that, or use the Planets descriptions in Astrology.

Feel free to write on email if you have any questions, though, this is complex paths.

Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2024, 02:38:44 PM »
By the way this also very interesting aligns with the materials in The Luminary. For example in there we have:

Door - Place of Worship - Road, Junction, Construction - Rubbish Chute, Disposal- Dirty Drainage, Sewages

Directions - Tian Yi(Hod- mishaps) - Place of worship
 Jue Ming(Road, Junstcion, construction) -
Rubbish Chute, Disposal(Netzach - Adventure palace?) -
Dirty Drainage , Sewage(Chesed, Peoples relations and stuff, six killings)

So Chesed we have to avoid Dirty Drainage and Sewage, so relation with people isn't tainted.
Roads and counstrction on Jue Ming, as that is the changes when one is alone, also what it will empower metal.
Then Rubbish and Disposal and Netzach, that is often translated as Beauty.
And finaly we avoid Hod for Place of Worship. And that also aligns very nicely.

So again fits very nicely, in my humble view. Overall its a wise technique. : )

I would post a link, but can't seem to find the luminary now, is the blog down?I have notes here and checking.

Offline throosden

Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2024, 03:33:55 PM »
Aha, I get that. Gray... Well he has his own problems, though. : )

And the Tree... They didn't really understood it in my view. Not that we do, but at least we aren't piling on top of each sephira as much crap as we can think of.

Oh he didn't? ;D He did write a lot about it. I don't understand much about all of this so can't see what of all his writings is useful or not.


Anyway, just this few pages is all I meant as needed for Tarot.
It just happens on other sources it won't work, this framework will work, but, as you will see its short. Few sentences for each card at most. The idea is to unfold the rest with meditation/experience.

So for divination, discard all other ideas/meanings/descriptions of the cards and work purely from the tree structure and minimal description of it (sefira, paths, worlds)? Could be interesting. Still leaves the court cards open though, although he does gives ideas how to use them in sangreal tarot book. Or maybe better just leave them out.


Gevurah - Jue Ming - Mars
Chesed - Liu Sha - Jupiter
Tifered - Fu Wei - Sun
Yan Nian - Yesod - Moon

Huo Hai - Hod - Mercury
Wu Gui  - Netzah - Venus

Binah - Saturn - Tian Yi
Chohma - Uranus - Shen Qi
Kether - Galactic Core - Heavens Heart/Middle

Chohma may not fit , perfectly in all cases, but the rest are perfect. Also good way to attribute the planets to the 8 mansions influences, as the other attributions I have seen, doesn't fit in how they are used in astrology in practice.

No Neptune and Pluto?


I'm reading a lot of Kabbalah, lately. I stopped for many years, long time ago, so didn't knew how much is in the open now. There is more. But it isn't really enough, from what I've seen so far.

In my humble view, reading more about the Tree may just be confusing. May be wiser to use it either with 8 mansions influences or with Planets.

I'm working on finding out the minimum sources that will be enough to learn the tree, but its going on slowly. Currently, would just recommend either learn the 8 mansions descriptions from JY and Kevin Chan and use that, or use the Planets descriptions in Astrology.

Hmm too bad, well I guess can still learn a bit about tree, bits and pieces.

Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2024, 04:34:53 PM »
Oh he didn't? ;D He did write a lot about it. I don't understand much about all of this so can't see what of all his writings is useful or not.

They had(all of them) the awesome idea that they should look at the world and classify everything they see into each sephira. Not as a relation, however, but as a static entity. It was like a "drawer" some said. You put as much as you can.
What they didn't realize, in my humble view, is that it isn't like a drawer. Its qualification quality. So its much closer to "left" then to "desk".
So then if one takes all they know and put it under "left", they will see there is nothing left for "right", as at some point of life, everything will be left of something else...

So as far as alignment with the nervous system, that should be the highest goal here, it was... Not the best choice. Could say was one of the worse possible ones, actually.
Anyway... They really didn't understood it in my view. In epically unhealthy ways and all over. : )

Quote
So for divination, discard all other ideas/meanings/descriptions of the cards and work purely from the tree structure and minimal description of it (sefira, paths, worlds)? Could be interesting. Still leaves the court cards open though, although he does gives ideas how to use them in sangreal tarot book. Or maybe better just leave them out.

That is the idea, yes. In there(one page below in Language of the Gods) there is explanation of the court cards as well. I'm thinking we can substitute his images for five arts images coming with the 4 pillars instead. But all is still under construction.  : )

Quote
No Neptune and Pluto?

Tree extends... So technically even Saturn for Binah is not all but just a glimpses of all that Binah will become when we make the full extension, yet since it can be used nicely in practice seemed wise to mention. But as the upper 3 have to contain all that will fall in the higher tree that will show up when Kether becomes Tifered etc. all humanity has discovered as its own collective Tree extended to include the new planets

So that is how it goes. Starting from the Earth with all its Sephirot for ionosphere, biosphere etc and Moon as Binah, Sun as Kether and Firmament as Chesed.
Then it extends as we find more and more and the upper 3 always take what is too far away to distinguish clearly. Then again and through all this the Tree extends and extends...

One of the reason I'm not very happy digging into Egyptian astrology. That won't contain the extensions of the Tree humanity has unfolded for the last few thousands of years. Doesn't mean it can't have its good sites, but why put so much effort for system that will have to be restored right away and is missing the most interesting Sephirot , as that is the current Tree in all cases...

So the recently discovered stuffs...
Together with all the stuff it will find on our way to the "Galactic Core", are in Binah and Chokmah, until the Tree extends. When we can distinguish them, the Veils disapear and we see what they are, while the higher 3  will move back, as they have done so often before.

So where are Neptune and Pluto... This seems to be fragment of the next tree, humanity hasn't connected to the Galactic Core, so the Tree isn't fully unfolded yet. Someday..
Until then, can view Neptune also in Chokmah and Pluto also in Binah or also in Daat(as that will become Yesod of the next tree, so base). But again, the whole next level of the Tree hasn't unfolded yet, so right now the upper 3 contain everything above we haven't discovered yet. So I guess more then 95% of the Cosmic Day is still only in those 3, as humanity can't distinguish yet.

In that sense, probably wise to keep in mind the highest 3 are not 1:1, as they always contain all above.
Here someone may say - but what is above the higher 3 is above the veils!
And while that may be true, parts of it we see(Neptune, Pluto Images from teleskopes far, far away etc.) are coming in the vessels of the highest 3 all at the same time.

Quote
Hmm too bad, well I guess can still learn a bit about tree, bits and pieces.

I'm focusing on the Kabbalah Center literature, lately. So far it looks like they have done awesome work, but I'm just starting so can't recommend specific reading thing yet. But their view is very nice, can also see much of the spiritual part of it that was strongly missing in the other views to it, sometimes. No single place with just clear explanation of the Sephirot yet, however. There is in the Zohar, but I was hoping I can find in the other books as well.


« Last Edit: February 05, 2024, 04:38:49 PM by Gmuli »

Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2024, 03:41:45 PM »
I do have to make a clarification here...

Someone may wonder doesn't that also count for the Five Arts. All is divided in categories etc.
And in my understanding, it doesn't. Because there is the knowledge that this isn't innate characteristic of something, but its a qualification/categorization we use for it. In the old western places, that was sometimes(often) missing and that is where that specific problem arises.
Yet of course, that is more then fine, language does it all the time.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 04:34:34 PM by Gmuli »

Gmuli

  • Guest
Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2024, 12:10:20 PM »
Gevurah - Jue Ming - Mars
Chesed - Liu Sha - Jupiter
Tifered - Fu Wei - Sun
Yan Nian - Yesod - Moon

Huo Hai - Hod - Mercury
Wu Gui  - Netzah - Venus

Binah - Saturn - Tian Yi
Chohma - Uranus - Shen Qi
Kether - Galactic Core - Heavens Heart/Middle


Apologies. There may have been a small mistake here.
Tian Yi - Tifered
Shen Qi - Daat

Binah Chohma and Kether are not subject to geometry. Explanation for that is in the previous post, they are seen beyond the veils as stuff, but when we clearly see them they will turn into other sephirot of the higher tree unfolding then.
I'm not sure about this part yet. But by definition Binah is very easy to recognize as this is Yin aspect of Shen. It produces Images. That is why we learn how to let them create sparks in us and stuff.
And I've tried to notice, but I can't see Tian Yi producing any images. Nor does Shen Qi fit to Chohma functions. So while I love the idea of the Yin and Yang polarity around Each Dan Dien, this time I think I may go with the Cube. And that would be Tian Yi - Tifered and Shen Qi - Daat.
So Tian Yi is balance in the center. Shen Qi is balance in searching.

So we see it in the Cube from the San Yuan Da Gua videos.
The 4 good directions are just on the same plane of the cube. That is why the other 4 need balancing and that suggest that the Plane containing the 4 positive direction is the Central Pillar.



In there we have the periods interacting with each apex of the Cube using the 8 mansions influences. So basically with Period 9 for example we move to each Trigram/Personality going through Yan Nian.
I wonder if that are Liu Fa periods...  They seem to be the most accurate ones, so far even if they are uneven...

Anyway, both concepts may be on point, but so far I think the previous one for the highest 3 was not fully aligned with the structure of how it actually works. So I will go with this one I think.


Gmuli

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Re: Tarot and the paths
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2024, 11:01:49 AM »
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« Last Edit: March 28, 2024, 11:45:27 AM by Gmuli »

 

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