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Library => Bazi => Topic started by: DiegoFS on September 28, 2020, 04:01:37 PM
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Without wishing to change the BāZì 八字 Body of Doctrine of Astrology and much less of the Traditional School (particularizing the original guidelines of Master Shén Xiào Zhān 沈孝瞻 [author of the Book Zi Ping Zhen Quan 子平真詮 (ZPZQ) Genuine and Bright Explanatory Notes, last Classic dating from the Qing Dynasty 清 (1,644-1,912)] and of which I am a faithful follower); however, if I wanted to re-evaluate some dictions that in my opinion are outdated and that belong to a language of the past. Like everything in life, we must modernize the terminology using a more Universal, International and Generic turn if the meaning is allowed.
For example, it does not seem appropriate to me to use the word: “Remedy”, an expression that was widely used by Master and Physician Zhang Nan [the author of the Work Shénfēng Tōng Kǎo 神 峰通考 (SFTK) Shénfēng Passing Exam] and also stood out as an Officer of the Imperial Court in Ming Dynasty times (明 1,368-1,644), to emphasize the targeting of the Minister Star (Xiāng Shén 相神), whose purpose is to correct anomalies in a Natal Chart. Here it is better to sound out the word: "Antidote", "Medicine" or even "Vaccine", if you want to antagonize any negative Qi of the Natal Chart.
It is quite common to find the diction: God. This locution should be omitted as much as possible and hopefully suppressed. I understand that within the ancient Chinese philosophy (either by the Taoist or the Buddhist route, I am a follower of the first, but I deeply respect the second) the polytheistic context is quite ingrained. But, as monotheistic religions predominate in the West today, the term God, denoting the expression of mathematical points of energy within the Four Pillars, sounds shocking. Nor would it be positive if we are branded as heretics or witches, because this is not the case and even more so, that we end up being persecuted (via online) and exterminated in the long term as happened during the Medieval Holy Inquisition (although it sounds like something exaggerated). That is why it is better to go to the word: "Agent" (some will point to applying the term Star (Xīng 星) but in order not to confuse them with Composite or Symbolic Stars [Shén Shā神煞] or with Auxiliary, it seems to me that "Agent" sounds more differentiating and endowment we assign common sense).
Thus, instead of saying the ten gods, it is better to notify: the Ten Agents of Transformation (Zhuǎnhuà Jì 转化 剂). Instead of suggesting: “Useful God” (Yòng Shén 用神 or Command of the Month) it is more logical to affirm it as “Useful Agent” 用神. And one of the most common concepts is referring to Eating God (食神) to justify Agent Shí Shén 食神. Here it is more convenient to extrapolate it to the expression: Nutrition Factor (Shí Shén 食神), which sounds more coherent. Eating God or Eating God or God of Food when quoting it in the West is perceived as a complete and total nonsense, a incoherence. I want to emphasize to the community of followers and forum members that we please join forces in modernizing the lexicon, making it more consistent and globalized, in line with the 21st century. In addition, the idea is to exalt, perpetuate and give all the notoriety to this Sacred Ancestral Wisdom that deserves it due to its excessive merits.
In short, we should say: Agent Owl (Shí Dào Shí 食倒食) and not God Owl, etcetera. Indirect Wealth Agent (Piān Cái 偏财), Wounded Official Agent (Shāng Guān 伤官) and so on.
Another idea that I want to discuss is the use of the “Long Cycle of Luck” [Yuàn Zhǎng 院長] that is usually contracted as LP, alluding to the 10 years that each of the fragments of the life horizon cover. I understand that in ancient times it was adopted on a daily basis within Imperial China. I am going to ask you to become familiar and apply the term: “Deanery” (Yuàn Zhǎng 院長), which sums up that extensive Ten-Year Period (Dà Yùn 大运). From my humble opinion "Luck" in the strict existential sense is not valid, it does not exist. I do not agree with saying "I have bad luck" or someone has "good luck". Both the one expression and the other reflect ignorance, since they are effects and consequences of deficiencies and obstacles (Karmas), or on the contrary, very positive and superlative events (Dharmas) that emanate from the evil or good actions of the past lives of any consultant. They are not the lottery of fate (Mìng Xué 命學). Our life from the moment of birth is already predestined and there are few events that we can redirect. Although it is true that with the applications and tools of the BāZì, the Fēng Shuǐ, the 8 Mystic Gates, the Yì Jīng, etc., and even with a more spiritual life (Qi Gong, Tai Chi, Internal Alchemy ...), we can empower some segments of existence.
It is worth clarifying that the word "Deanery" is usually used very regularly in Western Chaldean Astrology, but to define ten degrees of any of the 12 Zodiacal Houses. Here in the BāZì, the application would be different, that is, pointing out the Energy (Qi 齊) that prevails during the Long 10-Year Cycle, and that overlaps with the Annual, Monthly and Daily Cycle.
To conclude, and going back to the beginning of this article, I am going to succinctly expose some of my views about the Doctrine of the Four Pillars (Sìzhù 四柱) that in my opinion are wrong in their applicability (naturally I respect opinions contrary and the other Schools). The Masters: Xú Lè Wú (徐樂吾) and also the aforementioned Zhang Nan each deliberately distorted the Original Postulates of the Eight Character Astrology (BāZì 八字) in their time, emphasizing the primordial use of the Force (Yǒulì 有力) of the Day Master (Jiàoshī Jié 教師 節) at the expense of the Season (Jìjié 季节) Energetic
Such Force (Yǒulì 有力) although it is analyzed is fit how Secondary within the Analysis. Since the Core of the Graphic or the Gate of Qi is perpetuated in the Useful Agent (Shén Shen 神神). If the Force (Yǒulì 有力) is taken as the main action or the Central Axis of the Natal Chart, a precise diagnosis is not obtained and the deep essence of BaZi is lost. The Force (Yǒulì 有力) derives as a function of the Yòng Shén 用 神 and not the other way around. At the expense of this criterion, the concept of the Focal Point or Key Factor (Tígāng 提纲) arises and the configuration of the Equation of Destiny (Kàn Mìng Kǒujué 看 命 口诀) gravitates on such coordinates.
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Hi and welcome.
I don't write a lot lately, but I think this part I can comment on a little. : )
It is quite common to find the diction: God. This locution should be omitted as much as possible and hopefully suppressed. I understand that within the ancient Chinese philosophy (either by the Taoist or the Buddhist route, I am a follower of the first, but I deeply respect the second) the polytheistic context is quite ingrained. But, as monotheistic religions predominate in the West today, the term God, denoting the expression of mathematical points of energy within the Four Pillars, sounds shocking. Nor would it be positive if we are branded as heretics or witches, because this is not the case and even more so, that we end up being persecuted (via online) and exterminated in the long term as happened during the Medieval Holy Inquisition (although it sounds like something exaggerated). That is why it is better to go to the word: "Agent" (some will point to applying the term Star (Xīng 星) but in order not to confuse them with Composite or Symbolic Stars [Shén Shā神煞] or with Auxiliary, it seems to me that "Agent" sounds more differentiating and endowment we assign common sense).
I do understand what you mean I think.
But , of course, that would depend on the word. And in our case this is the shen神.
If we view what shen神 of the heart心 seems to have meant in the past(and I like to think it still means today, at least somewhat) the meaning would be much closer to something that perceives, while there is the idea of a specific relation or function, it can perceive relation or function, but it is the perceiving through the heart itself, more then it is what is perceived.
Is god a good word for it...
That would depend on the definition of god we use, yet the concept of the heart as perceiving, in its essence can be seen in many other countries.
From the poetic native american concept of "chante ishta"(the "only eye of the heart" in lakota), to the much more modern one "listen to your heart" that exists even in Bulgarian...
Yet we all know what that means.
So are the 10 shen神 more closer to a god or to an agent...
If we view them as 10 points of perceiving, 10 different influences, ways our heart can relate to our world, then one can argue that depending on how we define "god" it would be much closer to it, then most other words. Agents have a function, its popular term for the 5 elements/phases as well, yet the meaning and essence I'm not sure exists there.
I'm personally big fan of the approach where some parts of the terminology just isn't translated at all. As there is no single word that can bring the meaning, while the meaning is very much essential to get part of the systems.
In this sense the shen神 is connected to perceiving and to the heart心 and that start to seem universal, or at least understood in many unconnected places around the world. And it goes beyond the mechanical view of influences, they do seem to play a part in that, but there is more.
Agent is mechanical, god may have many other connotations and meanings, yet for many people all around the world its the closest to their heart and perceiving through it they will get.
And of course, as its connected to fire, we can also say that this point of perceiving from the heart, will be related to wherever the fire is in a chart, at least somewhat(as other influences can change stuff, as it always/often is).
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Gmuli, greetings. I simply cite it because in the West Christian religions predominate, and they are the majority. The term God is untouchable, unless it is used for your prayers.
It is not my intention that the text be misinterpreted. Chinese Astrology is perfect in its intention to forecast personal destiny. There is no discussion there.
But so that one thing does not collide with the other, it is better to use the term Agent which is more Neutral, if I may use the term.
And it would be a way for BaZi to fall more among the common people. If more generic and international words are used in this globalized world, the Astrology of the 4 Pillars would acquire more status ...
A very different thing is the Asian Culture and another very different the Culture of the West. We must try to establish common bridges and so everyone is happy ...
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Gmuli, greetings. I simply cite it because in the West Christian religions predominate, and they are the majority. The term God is untouchable, unless it is used for your prayers.
It is not my intention that the text be misinterpreted. Chinese Astrology is perfect in its intention to forecast personal destiny. There is no discussion there.
But so that one thing does not collide with the other, it is better to use the term Agent which is more Neutral, if I may use the term.
And it would be a way for BaZi to fall more among the common people. If more generic and international words are used in this globalized world, the Astrology of the 4 Pillars would acquire more status ...
A very different thing is the Asian Culture and another very different the Culture of the West. We must try to establish common bridges and so everyone is happy ...
I do agree with the general idea. : )
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I agree with @Gmuli ...
We must hold the old traditional word of Shen .. !!
There are many cultures that agree with the old naming ..
Daoist priests and Qi gong masters are mostly familiar with old meaning "Spirit - God "
..
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Hi all,
appreciated that diegofs is trying to attain a positive than a negative for the connotation of the word gods for shen神 persistently in CM world.
as am overseas chinese, having mahayan, theravada and christian relatives and even chinese relatives in few parts of china today, am sure the majority of1.5 B people brought up under CCP ideology are NOT going to "view what shen神 of the heart心 seems to have meant in the past(and I like to think it still means today, at least somewhat) ". This is Not going to happen as they would have a "certain" first impression or instilled perception for the meaning of such words in today's context.
as for diegofs " in the West Christian religions predominate, and they are the majority. The term God is untouchable, unless it is used for your prayers",
funnily the same would applies to CCP China today, if you have relatives in the high rung of the party, the social usage and practice of the term is also seem taboo as it would be seen that you are superstitious and not for current modern dogma, need more clocked time for ideology classes perhaps (do you know government servants have to periodically attend such classes every few years, as part of "continuing education points" especially those who had been to overseas - do read between the lines)?
On the other hand, imagined the mahayana buddhist or Taoist buddhist who already have their pantheon of Gods and bodhisattvas; and now to have CM gods into the everyday vocabulary, is also going to be seen as veering off to the path of Shintoist/animist japanese deities path i.e. god of golf, god of <named hobbies> etc...
So for east and west would have certain misaligned connotations. Just because of its essence to practitioners and its inbred familiarity for years, and the perceived manner of having an impactful influence or governance in CM usage, i believe like diegofs; there's likely to be more negative than positive perception to CM shen神 .
Can one really say Bazi, ZiWei or feng shui are non-religious, no-worship of deities and yet there's the word shen神 usage in CM vocabulary ?
Chinese Metaphysics is supposedly under the category of Chinese Philosophy umbrella but how does that convince outsiders or what's the first impression given if such words with potential negative connotations are used ?
Can't comment much about the "remedy", "antidote", "vaccine" bit but i would love to hear TCM practitioner sharing their feelings on the word connotation for someone that practice TCM but not practising CM.
Just thinking aloud and my 2 cents, no offense intended, more pun instead as am newbie here. We need to adapt with the times and sometimes past translation may be erroneous.
Cheers
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Well, so that we are all satisfied, it would be better to segment the consultants. For net Asians: the classic terminology is perfect. But for Westerners, if the terms need to be adjusted, trust me. I am Latin American and I know the terrain, there is a lot of religious fanaticism here, perhaps not like the fundamentalist Muslims (who are worse - I apologize if a Muslim reads it). So when you write God, put the word Agent next to it in parentheses. Here they enter because all kinds of people and from the whole world enter this page. If you say: God of Food, for a person from America, it sounds like an insult to the Creator of the Universe. Here it is conceived that God is one and cannot have "rivals of any kind". I could not say anything about Europe, but since the Vatican is there, it is better to take precautions for the sake of BaZi marketing. Perhaps for most Asians this produces laughter, but here it is quite the opposite, especially for ordinary citizens.
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In Taipei, some books that are translated, had chose to use the term "Spirit/s". So it would be Ten Spirits ;)
Don't think you would see "Agents" for a very long time, in any official translation that originate in countries which uses Chinese language for now.
Think, personally i can accept Spirits for now instead of Gods ;D
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Hi all,
Would like to ask some feedback from experienced practitioners, enthusiasts and masters here in this forum; on whether Bazi should continue with the term Qi Sha "7 Killing (7K, 七杀)" or replaced it with original term in our daily usage ?
i) Firstly, in some school of bazis, it does not carry a positive connotation, sort of bad to have
ii) Secondly, in some cases, this star can even be auspicious i.e. Sha Yin Xiang Shen (杀印相生)
iii) Thirdly, this term is relatively new in Bazi; original words used was Pian Guan 偏官 (not sure what is the most apt English word for this "Officer").
Qi Sha was more commonly found in Zi Wei Dou Shu (Purple Star Astrology) and Qi Men Dun Jia.
@DiegoFS , i see you like to use Qi Sha (7K, 七杀) a lot in your writing and also your posting in this forum; could you share, for any particular reasons for this incongruence choice; since you had espoused dropping Ten "Gods" to carry positive connotation and general world wide acceptance ?
"Penny for everyone thoughts" - an English idiom to meant Appreciated your generous sharing.
Cheers
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Charles, greetings and thank you very much for your interesting dialectical contributions.
Well, the idea of using Spirit instead of God, it could be. Although here, seen in the West, it generates certain doubts. I'm not totally sure. It sounds a bit strange.
And as for 7K, it would be good to hear proposals. Personally, it's not that I like it, nor do I dislike it. What happens, Charles, is that it is very difficult to find a precise term. I imagine that it was adopted taking into account that 7K tends to subject it to one, although as you mentioned it does not always happen, and sometimes it is even positive.
It would be good to find a less threatening term for it. To a person who does not know much about BaZi, they would think that this energy is going to kill and crush them (laughs ;D ;D ;D) ... There it would be good if we tried to make a consensus or a majority vote to define whether to leave the term 7K as it is usually used or change it for a more adequate concept.
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Charles, analyzing the term Spirit a bit, could be better and instead of opting for Ten Gods of Transformation (very Eastern), or Ten Agents of Transformation (very Western), it would be better to use: Ten Energies of Transformation, that is, Energy like Qi, it is a more "neutral" and Universal term.
If it is said: the Direct Wealth Energy, or the Energy of the Seal, it makes a more logical sense, at least to me. I don't know what your position is and that of the other Forists.
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Hi Charles,
i) Firstly, in some school of bazis, it does not carry a positive connotation, sort of bad to have
That's right. Similar to the term Rob Wealth (劫財) which can also be good or bad.
ii) Secondly, in some cases, this star can even be auspicious i.e. Sha Yin Xiang Shen (杀印相生)
yes, that's one way when it can be auspicious.
iii) Thirdly, this term is relatively new in Bazi; original words used was Pian Guan 偏官 (not sure what is the most apt English word for this "Officer").
One of my Bazi teachers used the English term "Unbecoming Officer". I think some others also translate it to "Indirect Officer".
I personally would not mind using the term 七杀 Qi Sha or Seven Killings (the direct translation in English). One must understand that the interpretation of a Bazi chart goes beyond the terminology.
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I would like to ask about another Ten Spirit/God term. Why is 印 Yin translated as Resource in so much English-language Bazi literature? The meaning of 印 Yin is seal, isn't it. I don't understand how Yin can be translated to "resource"!
There are two practitioners that use the term "Seal" in describing this Ten Spirits: our fellow forumer @trey and myself. Honestly, my usage of "Seal" was directly adopted from trey's usage. In Bazi chart interpretation, for example in the Mangpai school, Seal (when it's positive) can mean getting a promotion or ranking in your career. Seal (when it's positive) can also mean successful scholarship (like a seal on your diploma).
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How about using the term "support" in substituting for resource or seal?
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
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A warm greeting to JLim, Tyc and Ren.
First of all I am very sad that Trey Tan has retired and has not republished. But his translations have been immensely valuable. Personally, I owe 90% of my knowledge to Trey, he deserves to be made a statue or a reminder. For not being Western, your research is of immeasurable value.
As q 7K, it becomes Indirect Official when combined with the Nutrition Factor or the Seal, and thus becomes a good energy, as mentioned by JLim.
I do not see any problem when saying: Seal or Resource or Support (as proposed by tyc), any of the three is perfect. I sometimes write Seal and sometimes Resource, and if I had to write Support for, I would be fine.
Later I will read the link just sent by ren (thanks a lot).
I have to go out to do some urgent errands and I'll be back later. I have an idea about 7K, but in a few hours and more calmly I will sit down and write to you.
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Here is my take on these three words:
Seal in a sense could represents authority because in the olden days no subjects within the kingdom will act without either the king's words or his written commands plus the seal.
Resources in a sense could represent a source of energy that might be used when it's available to the user. However, resources doesn't need authority but simply have procession in order to be used.
Support in a sense is not resource but rather someone or something willing to do or provide you service without authority. More like someone is loyalist without having to pay them for their actions.
Almost the same meaning but different level of willingness in supporting the day master. What does everyone else think?
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
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Hi Pak Jlim and all,
I have almost forgotten that i was doing some works in this field. That was so long ago. I saw an email in my inbox that I was mentioned, so I just pop up to say hi.
Happy mid autumn and
Regards to everybody
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I can't believe Trey Tan is here in the Forum. It's really amazing, I'm one of your most loyal fans. My name is Diego, I live in Bogotá, Colombia. The other side of the world. At least I am 11 hours away between Asia and America, I suppose it is day there, it is night here.
It would be nice if you came to visit us. I have read all your translations and they are really fantastic.
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I have an idea about the use of the word 7K, it is a very strong term: "seven murders", and we could try to find a word a little more suitable. Even up to 3K, it is still very aggressive, if I may use the term.
As what this energy does is control the Master Day, I am going to propose to the Forum the daily use of the word "Control-K", it seems to me something more consistent, more generic and global.
Still, I'd like to discuss it and make some adjustments. The plan would be to find points of agreement, a consensus among the Foristas.
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Regarding Tyc's proposal, it would be interesting to consider it. I must clarify that I have no idea of the Chinese language, so I do not know to what extent my opinion is valid. I suppose that ancient Mandarin will have its own semantics, its dialectical and even philosophical bases.
The energy of the Seal (or Resource) represents support and family help, it is also linked with intelligence and education and even in health. Now, if it is more precise to use the term “support”, it would be decisive to include its context and in this sense the Tyc proposal is good to take into account.
It is worth clarifying that the Indirect Seal Piān Yìn 偏 印 turns into an aggressive Shí Dào Shí 食 倒 食 Owl (in torrential nutrition), under certain characteristics to the detriment of the Shí Shén 食神 Nutrition Factor. That is, it is not always favorable.
The Forists have the floor.
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I don't know to what extent it would be pertinent to ask Trey to return to Five Arts, you are an integral part of this Wisdom. Even if wasn't as a text translator, but your Consultancies and Technical Reviews (even if they weren't constant) would be very valuable. A fraternal greeting from Colombia.
And for all Forum members equally, we will be in contact.
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Regarding Tyc's proposal, it would be interesting to consider it. I must clarify that I have no idea of the Chinese language, so I do not know to what extent my opinion is valid. I suppose that ancient Mandarin will have its own semantics, its dialectical and even philosophical bases.
The energy of the Seal (or Resource) represents support and family help, it is also linked with intelligence and education and even in health. Now, if it is more precise to use the term “support”, it would be decisive to include its context and in this sense the Tyc proposal is good to take into account.
It is worth clarifying that the Indirect Seal Piān Yìn 偏 印 turns into an aggressive Shí Dào Shí 食 倒 食 Owl (in torrential nutrition), under certain characteristics to the detriment of the Shí Shén 食神 Nutrition Factor. That is, it is not always favorable.
The Forists have the floor.
Just to note, I can't read chinese as well. The 3 types of definition were based on my readings on other sites & forum.
Agree eating owl (IR for Output or maybe R for HO) is another term used in Trey website. My first pass on trey website was information overload. I'll visit his website once I get more use in understanding the earth elements in he natal chart.
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OK, tyc, don't discount Trey's information, because it's a complete BaZi Library.
I recommend that you separate that information into separate folders on your computer, for example, everything from the Direct Officer (in one Folder), the Rob Wealth information in another, and so on.
When researching Composite Stars, you need to have all of that in a dedicated folder for that topic.
The same happens with the 12 Heralds (exclusive folder). Another for the Helpful Agent that is fundamental. Another for interactions ...
Another folder for the Seal and the Ribbon. Etc. It doesn't matter that you have to work with 30 or 40 or 50 separate folders. The important thing is to order all the information. If you do not do so, you will never finish learning and acquiring Mastery in this area. With organized folders and subfolders you can get clear ideas. There is a book that is also on the internet and you can download it for free, it is called the Secret Man's Poem, it is a very old but necessary translation.
Then you organize the information in your head, little by little. You must work hard and have patience and perseverance. You also have to practice from time to time, even if you make a mistake at first. You must use trial and error technique, because that gives you confidence and security.
My website is just under construction, when I have it ready I will pass the information here or you will find it in my personal profile (of this site). Likewise, more than anything else I am going to publish Birth Letters of Famous People and from time to time of ordinary people. I will be publishing little by little about Face and Hand Reading, Feng Shui. But it touches me little by little, because it is difficult to write mostly at the same time and it is a very extensive material. Here at Five Arts, I will try to post as time allows.
I will not publish on personal research unless there are conceptual errors in a book. But the Classic BaZi in general already has a defined body of doctrine.
Perhaps I will post little about I Ching, because there are too many Philosophical Schools and Teachers and I avoid getting into conflict. I try to follow the classical Confucian ideas of the Book of Changes a bit.
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I missed a couple of details.
The texts on Trey's website are in disarray. I suppose that as he was doing translations he attached the material one by one and never had time to organize it. Still, Trey's effort is worth a lot. But these materials must be systematized in order to give them a logical meaning.
And secondly, in the previous comment I put Helpful Agent which in Trey's translations appears as Helpful God or Yong Shen. From now on I will try to adopt and get used to the term Useful Energy, since there are opinions of Asian Forum Members who consider the word Agent as something out of context.
The intention is that in the East and the West we try to be more or less in agreement.
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Hi DiegoFS,
Is there another paraphrase for "aggressive Shí Dào Shí 食 倒 食 Owl (in torrential nutrition)", as this sounded quite odd. Or even the use of the word "Ribbon" ?
Also "Seal" is the direct translation of "印" and this word itself as a noun can meant An Authoritative Seal, Credentialing Stamp; a Quality trace or a mark of compliance Safety or Safe passage etc. or as a verb to stamp or to print or to engrace or to conform etc.
It is no wonder some Taiwanese transliteration either use the word "Seal" or "Empowerment" (In the Spirit of Empowerment).
As it refers to all things that protect, safeguard, peace of mind, sense of well being, security, as in the ancient Chinese bureaucratic system , the Officer is assigned to a position bearing a seal to symbolize his authority, and empowerment to carry out the performance of duty.
Believed it applies to Western world in medieval times, the King's seal represent in similar vein.
Cheers
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One word (example resource) can be used as a noun, verb, and adjective /adverb (represented in terms of degree / level).
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From the last comment by tyc, I will give my opinion: Resource is a masculine noun in the Spanish language (it is worth noting that it has one of the most complicated grammars in the world along with the language they speak on the island of Cyprus in the Mediterranean). In my language it is used a lot by lawyers, but that does not mean that in BaZi cannot be used.
Regarding the contributions of Charles I must say:
Torrential Nutrition is a term that Trey Tan used and that sounds good to me, at least for my language, it sounds good. It is a very strong energy that hurts Shi Shen.
With reference to the concept of Seal and Ribbon, it is also an old Chinese phrase, according to Trey's translations (Shòu Yìnshòu 绶 印 绶). It seems that it also means "wheel with teeth" in modern Chinese and possibly has other meanings. In itself it is when a parallel appears in the terrestrial branch of the month. For example, in days gone by in the birth chart of the son of the user DreamFlameCat (strong graph) and in which I made an analysis of such a graph: that same natal chart itself is from Seal and Ribbon, which does not take predominance there because the structure takes the form I explained there. To me personally, the word "Tape" o "Ribbon" doesn't mean anything to me. But I do not have elements of judgment, nor arguments to criticize it.
And as for the Seal or Resource or Support, I do not see a big problem.
I get used to the idea that in each language: German, Portuguese, French, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Russian and others, each word adopts certain nuances and different meanings, therefore, it would be very difficult for the BaZi keywords to be right anchored to all languages. Surely, if someone from Romania or Slovenia read these posts, they would think according to those languages that our BaZi words are not valid there.
By this I mean that it would be very difficult for all the users to be satisfied with these terms in all the 7,000 languages in the world. At least if they remain consistent in English (which is the global language) would be more than enough.
I also make it clear that my English is quite limited, here I only do it with my google translator to communicate.
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One word (example resource) can be used as a noun, verb, and adjective /adverb (represented in terms of degree / level).
There is gammer system in Latin / Greek but not in Chinese. Thus, don't take the word / calligraphy literally that's all I'm trying to convey.
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Regarding the use of the word "Tape" that I get the idea what do you mean: "connection" or a "bridge" of energy (it seems to be the most likely interpretation of the ancient Chinese philosophers) and being so, the expression "the Seal and the Tape” would be perfectly valid. Because it would be telling us that there is a very deep connection in the nucleus of the natal chart, between the Master Day and the Useful Energy.
Either way, the Seal and the Ribbon is a Qi that is usually favorable, as long as it assumes the Command of the Natal Chart.
Having said this to clarify that if the aforementioned parallel is transformed, or does not stand out in the branches, or falls into a Death and Void (Kong Wang), or has many Shocks that neutralize it, the graph is disordered because the Useful Energy moves towards the Celestial Stem of the Year or towards the Pillar of the Hour, and in this sense, the Structure adopts another form. This being the case, the Seal and the Ribbon would become an unimportant, inconsequential and second-order Energy.
In Trey's writings and translations, he precisely refers that many important personalities have it but this condition is valid as long as the Earthly Branch of the Month is the true Master Governor of the District. I think that in the old forums there had been some discussions about it.
At some point, a Natal Chart with these characteristics will appear and it would serve as a practical example to qualify it.
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How about using the term "support" in substituting for resource or seal?
Some people are wondering how come some schools uses Resource instead of Seal / Support/ Empowerment ?
i had a quick chat with a fellow who uses the term Resources.
Apparently it is more for practical application for modern people.
Believed that because Seal happens to be the element that produces the Day Master in the Production cycle of the 5 elements thus for easier placement or visualization in terms of relationship; they chose to use Resources as it is more practical or application based. Useful in charting too.
In actual fact, if one chose on being "literal" as in the 5 elements, each element is accorded the Yin & Yang polarity; the actual term would be Righteous (Zheng Yin) Seal (正印) and Alternative (Pian Yin) Seal (偏印) and classically more appropriate accordingly.
Perhaps we all are looking at these wrongly as before we even come to the definition of best words to use in English, we should ask ourselves to what Purposeful application or goal is the usage/context before deciding on the words.
So i guess other than discussed; there's currently 3 categories of choice of words selected used based on purpose:
1) Practical application i.e. following the cycle of 5 elements or for visual placement in relationship
2) Lexical meaning i.e. more so on the meaning of the term in common usage in today's times OR stated as simply as possible in order to convey information to the widest audience globally.
3) Non lexical meaning which can include "literal translation" i.e. (Pian Yin) (偏印) can be literally translated as Alternative/Deviate/Slant Seal.
For example on the above:
1) For practical application in terms of placement in production cycle of 5 elements: ReSource would be apt
2) For lexical meaning in English language, some would chose Empowerment/Support etc. etc.
3) For "literal translation" keeping the traditional words to relate to ancient times instead of modern times and original language then Pian Yin or Seal would be apt.
- so like 'Dao' comment, he likes his PinYin so i guess he would likely stick to the classical transliteration which would be best.
All the above are best in each category; really depending on fit of purpose.
My 2 cents.
Cheers
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Practical, lexical, non lexical are more like using them as noun, IMO.
What if we try to explain an action in a sentence? If we were to use these gods/agencies/elements as verbs or action verbs, what word(s) are best to use to describe their movements?
Trey website, he stated that in a natal chart HS moves where as EB doesn't move (it does like earth quakes /clashes / penality...etc). Thus, should we treat EB elements as nouns and HS elements as actionable (verbs) gods/agencies?
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In reference to the comments of Dao and Charles, I would like to comment the following:
Pinyin is very useful to use due to the diversity of schools and if we add to that the 7,000 languages in the world, the situation becomes more complicated.
In reality it happens with professionals in biology and botany: there are hundreds of thousands of plants in the world, to avoid confusion they place what they call the common name of the plant according to the region where it is grown, but in parentheses is placed the inernational or scientific name in Latin.
And it is the least traumatic way of handling the diversity of concepts, in my case I usually write the term I apply and the name in pinyin in parentheses so that anyone can detect it. For example, as I avoid saying Food God, I say Nutrition Factor (Shí Shén 食神), and thus any reader will be clear about what I mean.
But going back to the beginning of the post, we should try to use English terms that are a bit more modern and that bear some practical resemblance to the application of any of the 10 Energies or Transformation Qi. We may never agree, but if there is a standard of 80%, that would be enough. And by adding the pinyin to its side in parentheses, any conceptual doubts are clarified.
Regarding tyc's comment, personally I almost always convert the energies of the graph into explanatory sentences, because in principle, it is assumed that the person consulting is not an expert in BaZi, so that one assumes the “role” of translating the Letter in real situations that situations happened before or are about to happen. In a way, BaZi has a large amount of energies that "speak in their own language", the interesting thing is to acquire the ability to know how to discover it, and as already mentioned before in trying to give "solutions" to the person who consults, especially when big trouble comes.
But neither should we condition "rigid sentences", because the energies are mixed and acquire certain nuances with the Na Yin, with the Interactions, with the Structures, with the Heralds, with the Seasons, with the Composite Stars and the Auxiliaries and sometimes it appears a Death and Void, a Heaven in Void, the Useful Energy assumes a leading role for better or for worse. It would be counterproductive to propose that the 10 Agents have a predetermined role (under a sentence), because the reading is holistic (integral) and would not allow it.
I want to thank all the forum members who have been participating, because all these valuable ideas help us to provide feedback on the different philosophical, geographical, idiomatic and conceptual positions. From where I am I only see my own focus and not that of others, so I feel as if I am located on a satellite or in a spaceship outside of planet earth, and thus I can have a more global perspective of BaZi.
I would like to add a point that Charles makes regarding polarity (Yin and Yang): from my own experience (I have seen it many times and repeatedly) and I have already observed it in other people, the polarity opposite to that of the Master Day is more helpful, generous and enriching than polarity itself. Here if you apply a concept that is used in physics that "opposites attract."
Thus, for example, for a person whose Master Day is Yang Wood, in general terms a Yin Metal (Direct Officer), Yin Water (Seal), Yin Earth (Direct Wealth), Yin Fire (Hurting Officer) are more convenient. The only exception is with the Parallel, where the Yang Wood (Lu) is the most suitable. Naturally, everything is nuanced according to the total configuration of the Natal Chart (everything is relative) and the Energies that appear on the horizon of time (Cycle of the 10 Years, the Year, the Month and the Hours that go emerging).
However, there must always be a point of balance, because if a Yang Wood receives the impact of three Yin Metals, in this case it is a Positive Energy but that becomes a harmful process.
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Well, Jiyou: unfortunately for Traditional School BaZi Astrology, Trey Tang has retired (seems to be doing other business) and apparently sometimes just comes to say hello to the Forum. But hey, at least as a consolation maybe one day you can ask him for a virtual autograph. It would have been wonderful to have been able to debate with him here, but we may never have that privilege.
Personally, I am a student of Trey and his ancient translations, if it were up to me I would install a statue in Five Arts as a reminder of his academic contributions and having rescued the Millennial Manuscripts from the shadows of time, especially for of us, we don´t know how to translate ancient Mandarin.