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Library => Liu Yao => Topic started by: Sacrar on September 28, 2020, 09:07:04 PM
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Hi, to all.
I have the following doubt, and the truth is quite confusing as each practitioner seems to work with his own rules. I am referring to the effect of the changed line in the hexagram first.
According to Jack Chiu the rule of influence of the changed line on the origin hexagram is that if it has influence on its origin line it will not have influence on any other line. However, if it does not influence its origin line, it can influence any other line. In particular he says:
The Changed Line, since it is not part of the original hexagram, will have different implications on the other lines:
- The Changed Line will have the capacity to impose the four effects, vitalization (sheng), devitalization (ke), opposition (Chong) and conjunction (Liu He) in its original Active Line or Yuan Dong-Yao. If so, the Changed Line will NOT have any effect on any of the other lines.
However I have seen here on the forum practitioners of Liu yao who relate a changed line to several lines of the original hexagram. For example Master JLIM uses uses it in this way, It seemed to me in some cases.
I wonder what would be the most correct or usual way. I wonder if Wild Crane or any other classic book has a chapter about it where it talks about those rules and what it says.
I'll give you an example. Someone asked "How it would go if I worked in the X company".
(https://i.postimg.cc/76jSmMwL/Captura-2.png) (https://postimg.cc/ZBF9qN9k)
https://www.bright-hall.net/wwg/16,0,0,1,0,0,0,3,2,2020-01-22,20:01
We see that the changed line Shen-Official controls (Ke) its line of origin Mao-Sibling, but also is able to bound/link (Liu He) with Si-Child. According to J. Chiu's rule the changed line would only be able to control the origin line and not to make Liu He with Si-Child.
What is your opinion or position on this issue?
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Lets say a line is turning to its Resource(water to metal, wood to water etc).
Now, if you imagine that the resulting line is a state change of the initial line, this brings another point of view. Obviously it can interact as any resulting line, yet at the same time it can be viewed as an "improved" state ,so empowering the initial position.
But that doesn't mean that the initial position interacts, it just means that the resulting line will have the quality/state of strengthening the initial idea.
And I can point again to The Monks topics, as this stuff is explained very well there in my view...
So one of the reasons some of these questions are left unanswered(at least for me), is that they have already been covered.
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@Gmuli I appreciate your answer but I don't see connection with the question raised, maybe I didn't know how to express my doubt properly or I didn't understand your point of view.
I give another example case here of the forum.
Topic: Quiz 35- Someone made divination if in future will be officeholder. http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=596.0 (http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=596.0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpDpXQpV/Captura-de-pantalla-2020-09-29-212310.png) (https://postimg.cc/NywtR8TS)
In this case Si-fire Officer changes to Yin-wood Asset, and Yin-wood gives life or produce (sheng) to Si-fire back, which means returning to its source. Yin-wood is influencing its original line. If we follow the Jack Chiu rule, Yin-wood will only exclusively affect its original line and will not influence any other line. But if we discard this rule, Yin-wood, besides vitalizing Si-fire, could establish a Liu He with L4 Hai-water, as Jlim comments in the case.
Jack Chiu rule: (I say jack chiu rule, but this rule is not his, he will have learned that rule in the books and teachers he had in his academic training.)
The Changed Line, since it is not part of the original hexagram, will have different implications on the other lines:
- The Changed Line will have the capacity to impose the four effects, vitalization (sheng), devitalization (ke), opposition (Chong) and conjunction (Liu He) in its original Active Line or Yuan Dong-Yao. If so, the Changed Line will NOT have any effect on any of the other lines.
5. Yin Wealth combines to hold Hai, so that Hai cannot clash the Yong Shen (...)
6. Yin Wealth produces Si Officer --> you need a little money to get more (promotion) (...)
Again I ask, What is the right rule? A or B?
A. If the changed line influences in its origin line will not have any other influence/relation on another line. (Jack Chiu)
B. Even if the changed line has an influence on the origin line it can still establish relationships with other lines.
If we accept A as correct then in the example Yin wood only influences Si fire and could not establish a Liu He with L4 Hai water.
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This is the same question that @vadim posted...
At this point I can just point out to this post by The Monk:
http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=555.msg4481#msg4481
And recommend to think about how it all works... Something is changing, turning to its opposite(yang to yin etc.)
Once that change is complete we end up in a new potential relation with everything around.
How can both be true, from one part to carry the idea of strengthening the original line, from another to interact as its something new.
(hint - the answer is in the 12 stages, as a way to view what the line is doing at the same time)
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12 stages are useful occasionally not always ..!!
Then you open another clue of discussion ...as "12 stages" ..
that's why I mention ". ..too many layers underline a principle "
This is the difficult part to fathom on principles ..!!
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12 stages are useful occasionally not always ..!!
Sure. The important part is to figure out when to apply that.
As there are 2 aspects to that... We can have branch falling in tomb/storage and that requires 2 branches.
Then we have branch that is in a state of "entomb". That would require something to measure that state to, but in general we are looking at the same branch.
So a line fallig into the day - all good, these principles we know.
Yet a line changing to its Tomb - this is different now, because this aren't 2 different lines, this is the same line, in another state. : )
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Hey @all ..
As a mater of fact is obvious Jack Chiu was borrowing this principle from Wild Cranes Oldman's Book (but partially )
Inside this book is written :
動變生剋沖合
Moving or Changed lines in Production, inhibition, Clash or Alliance.
卦有動爻，動而必變。
From an Hexagrams moving line [Hu/or Ben-Yao], a Changed one certainly come
about [Bian-Yao ]
夫變出之爻，能生剋沖合本位之動爻，不能生剋他爻，
If this changed line, is capable to produce, inhibit,Clash,conjunct,with its Root line position [Ben -Yao], [but] Not capable to produce or inhibit another line, (...but 3can conjunct, clash with other lines ... my own infer )
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Is obvious a misinterpreted this part ..!!
I don't seen any answer on this vital law that presented on this thread ..!!
Anyway .. I take Liu Yao as an art and not as a science .. that's very difficult to present any experience of "know how " .. but science can do ..!!
I don't participate here as a teacher of Liu Yao .. but as a member that try to evaluate with explanations a query with its given Hexagram ..
Of course there are many competent users that can make a further research on Liu Yao principles .. fair well then !!
wishes the best to all
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fair well then !!
wishes the best to all
Waaaait... Whaaaat...?!?
I'm confused now...
I think I missed something...
I didn't answer about the wild crane thing, because I personally work with the idea the rules there doesn't work very well, anyway.
So answering stuff from there is pointless, to be fair I didn't even read the translation,because of that...
Even if I thought wild crane was awesome, though, no member can answer every single question...
So if problem was not answering, it seems like overreaction.
If problem was answering, then I do have to clarify - I'm not teaching Liu Yao, either, that doesn't mean when people that are just starting with it have questions, there isn't some stuff I can share from the past years practice with it... Everyone is free to decide if it has more meaning to them or not, I don't care much either way.
So if that was "inspired" by my reply in some way, its unreasonable. You are moderator here, while I'm just passing, because a member asked me to read a case here... I will very likely be gone soon again, you are suppose to stay and moderate... So "farewells", seem out of place at this point of development of it all, whatever reason has lead to them,in my view.
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Dear @Gmuli ..
I know you are very important on this forum .. you have made so much work on Liu Yao .. I am obliged on you ...!!
Much more you open very interesting themes that need Thoughtful answers ...!!! I would rather to activate the "silence" of these competent members on answering ... don't blaming me .. am sure you don't.
Best regards
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Dear @Gmuli ..
I know you are very important on this forum .. you have made so much work on Liu Yao .. I am obliged on you ...!!
Much more you open very interesting themes that need Thoughtful answers ...!!! I would rather to activate the "silence" of these competent members on answering ... don't blaming me .. am sure you don't.
Best regards
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Thank you, my friend, we all have learned a lot from each other last few years I think.
I thought you were leaving coz of the farewell part, I'm happy you aren't. : )
And we try to help people learning, with the little that we already know.. i think its a good cause.
Other members may join in or not, its all good anyway. : )
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Hey , dear @ren .. hi ..
I wait your translation but I think i don't miss the point ..!!
As for j. Chiu's book and J. Yu's material of study is near perfect ..!! Still need revaluation .. (peronal estimation ).But without saying we need your presentation and your opinion here .. your quotations are very singular on any subject you referring .. am greatful .
BTW yes , you are right about English language .. isn't my native one, still try the Best I can ..!! Pls correct me ..
Best regards
Tt
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I think what Ren was saying is that the rules aren't the most vital part of it all, very important, of course, but the Images and connection to the actual situation is the part that we can't go without, we can read with missing rules.
Lets say someone asks if their boss likes them(check the other forum for more info)... Their line moves from Asset to Sibling and while it combines on Asset with the boss(Officer) it will clash him on Sibling.
We don't need fancy rules here... The person moves from asset(something valuable to the company/boss) to Sibling(just one of many).
The boss likes him on Asset(combination) and has a lot of problems with him on sibling(clash).
Then if there is unexpected outcome we look again. And we adjust by the very way that the events happened, so lets say after this the boss still likes him on sibling - then the clash didn't happen for some reason. We look why...
The rules will, sometimes, come from the interactions, we can view the actual event and the Images we use are much more important. The rules are important, but since that part is not reflected well in most sources, we can deduce them by the outcome. But need to connect the events to the images first.
In short - its better(when there are missing rules) to let the events guide you. If you just describe each step after that as you see it(clash - they will have problems, moving line - something is changing, initial line - its position before the change etc.) usually much of it is very close to reality and often its enough to even get the answer correct.
This is just my approach, I'm happy with it, however and I think that was the point Ren was pointing to, as well.
And in this, Images are more important then the rules. If the Images are right with enough questions the rules mayl follow.
In that sense I agree about Harmen as well.
The materials there provide a lot of deeper view to each element interacting and that by itself is what we need, most of the time.
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Hey, @ren
# You may say I am a "dreamer " ...
But l'm not the only one ...#
Beatles ..
😁😁😁😁
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@Tientai I searched like crazy through the forum for a case study where a line influenced its original line and also clashed (Chong) with another line, but you said (you thought) it couldn't clash because of the "flow" created between the changed line and its origin line. So if in some cases we decide that Liu He or Chong can be established and in other cases we decide that it cannot, it seems to me very arbitrary and we are accommodating the interpretation in a biased way.
Let's see if I can find the case to put it here...
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@Sacrar .. hi
.. I said a clash can make a moving line not move .. or "imobilize " but this clash must come from the day just as Yin in our example .. otherwise is not ...!!
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