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Library => Bazi => Topic started by: TenVirtues on March 02, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
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Having said that, what traditional Bazi calls "Follow Wealth structure" is not necessarily a chart with a lot of wealth, as traditional Bazi claims.
Hi brother @JLim
I think this statement is more a modern misconception. Than a traditional bazi claim.
I have not read anywhere in the classic's where the claim of follow wealth charts always equate to a lot wealth.
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Hi brother @JLim
I think this statement is more a modern misconception. Than a traditional bazi claim.
TenVirtues, that's true, and it's very spread throughout the industry! I was also taught like that in traditional Bazi.
I have not read anywhere in the classic's where the claim of follow wealth charts always equate to a lot wealth.
This is what I've found from《弃命从财诗诀》
日干无气满盘财，弃命相从是福胎，运旺财官皆福贵，如逢相助反为灾。
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Hi brother @JLim
I think this statement is more a modern misconception. Than a traditional bazi claim.
TenVirtues, that's true, and it's very spread throughout the industry! I was also taught like that in traditional Bazi.
I have not read anywhere in the classic's where the claim of follow wealth charts always equate to a lot wealth.
This is what I've found from《弃命从财诗诀》
日干无气满盘财，弃命相从是福胎，运旺财官皆福贵，如逢相助反为灾。
Brother @JLim, I often feel sad at what the modern traditional bazi industry has turned traditional bazi into.
I think a lot of this stems from modern lifestyle. People now a days want to take a 3 day or 2 week course and expect to become proficient or even experts after.
Learning real traditional bazi often takes much longer. In the modern times not many people willing to commit the true time and hours it takes to become proficient.
It is also much harder for those who don't read or write chinese to learn due to lack of information in other languages.
I have also read the poem you posted in 三命通会. I think this poem is generally correct but; one most have a very deep understanding of follow charts to grasp it's deeper meaning.
Especially the last 2 stanza's of the poem 运旺财官皆福贵，如逢相助反为灾。 The General meaning of this last 2 stanza's is easy to understand. 运旺财官皆福贵 follow wealth chart need to go through wealth and officer LP's.
如逢相助反为灾 If follow wealth chart is going through LP's that strengthen the DM. Chartholder will become detrimental or experience ill-fortune. This is true for follow wealth structure.
Here i think we come to another common misconception of traditional bazi in modern times. Analyzing Chart Structure, Determining strength of DM are all steps to a traditional bazi analysis.
A traditional bazi analysis does not stop at determining strength of DM and Chart Structure.
This is important because many people nowadays stop at the part of determining chart structure but; forget that within every chart structure there is high,mid,low grade.
A pure follow wealth chart formed from all wealth is actually considered a mid-low grade chart.
This is because a follow wealth chart being formed just from pure wealth will always experience huge up's and downs.
如逢相助反为灾, Every 12 years there is atleast 6 years where a follow wealth chart will have to experience their seal and self Yearly Pillars. Regardless of going through wealth LP or Officer LP.
Because a follow wealth chart is formed solely of wealth, there is nothing stop the huge clashes from happening.
That is why in DTS Book 2 Chapter 12. Master Ren states:
凡从财格，必要食务吐秀，不但功名显达，而且一生无大起倒凶灾。
Follow Wealth Charts, Most see EG potrude; Not only will Honor's be great but one's life will not have as huge up's and down's.
He also gives 2 examples of follow wealth charts.
壬寅 壬寅 庚寅 戊寅
癸卯 甲辰 乙巳 丙午 丁未 戊申
庚金生于孟春，四支皆寅，戊土虽生犹死。喜其两壬透干年月，引通庚金，生扶嫩木而从财也。亦是秀气流行，更喜运走东南不悖，木亦得其敷荣，所以早登甲第，仕至黄堂。
丙寅 庚寅 壬午 乙巳
辛卯 壬辰 癸巳 甲午 乙未 丙申
壬水生于孟春，木当令，而火逢生，一点庚金临绝，丙火力能锻之，从财格真。水生木，水生木，木生火，秀所流行，登科发仁，至侍郎。
Both Follow wealth chart holder's are not wealthy businessmen charts but; actually government officials.
The first bazi is that of who achieved the position of 黄堂 which basically is a 太守（Minister) Which is a 1-2 品 Highest Level Government Official.
The 2nd bazi is that of a 侍郎 which can be 3-4 品 depending on the department he is a 侍郎 in.
Another famous follow wealth chart is that of the Last Qing Emperor PuYi.
DM
丙午 庚寅 壬午 丙午
He was forced out of forbidden city in late 1924 and left Beijing in 1925 for TianJin. Marking the beginning of his 壬辰LP and the end of the Qing Dynasty.
I think it's important to note that although all 3 charts are considered high level chart's there are still minor details that separate these charts.
IMO High grade charts also separate into high-mid-low grade but; i think that is discussion for another day.
Hopefully i haven't bombarded you and everyone with too much info! Sometimes i get carried away when it comes to traditional bazi because i truly believe it deserves justice!
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Dear TenVirtues,
l agreed with you traditional bazi truly deserve some justice. Sometimes don't know weather to cry or laugh when see those l aslo don't know what they are writing and talking about. Just pluck it out from the thin air and to their liking.
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Dear TenVirtues,
l agreed with you traditional bazi truly deserve some justice. Sometimes don't know weather to cry or laugh when see those l aslo don't know what they are writing and talking about. Just pluck it out from the thin air and to their liking.
Hi @Alan
I find it sad and hilarious as well. I often feel sad for those who are getting read by readers who use these very generic types of mainstream reading. It's like the people online who are still recommending industries and careers based on useful element. I find it so LOL and hilarious whenever i see or read posts of people trying to suggest career fields based on useful elements.
Just take the example charts that i have given and Warren Buffet's chart. There are 3 Ren DM's 1 Geng DM.
Out of these 3 Ren DM's all use Fire Wealth as UseFul God. Yet outcome is different 1 Is a Emperor, 1 is a Politician/Officer, 1 is a businessman.
That is why i always chuckle when i see reader's online go around suggesting career fields based on useful elements. This is one huge tell-tale sign of a amateur.
Although i don't blame modern reader's for doing this because alot of them were taught this way. I often feel sad for these amateur readers as well because they don't know the karmic implications they put themselves in sometimes.
It's like a reader making a prediction about someone's spouse having a extramarital affair 20 years from now. Who knows what the one being read might think 20 years from now. He might be happily married and all of a sudden he remembers the prediction that was made for him. He starts to become paranoid and end up killing his wife because of something a reader said casually.
This might not seem like a big deal to the reader at the moment but; know if any bad karma happens because of the predictions that you have made. It will come back to you whether in this life or the next.
If your predictions caused a murder you best believe your karma will be affected.
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Another famous follow wealth chart is that of the Last Qing Emperor PuYi.
DM
丙午 庚寅 壬午 丙午
He was forced out of forbidden city in late 1924 and left Beijing in 1925 for TianJin. Marking the beginning of his 壬辰LP and the end of the Qing Dynasty.
Hi TenVirtues, this is an interesting chart that reminds me of the movie "The Last Emperor". The hour in DTS (Di Tian Sui) is questionable. According to notes in astro-databank, based on a reliable biography, PuYi was born at midnight. Why did DTS write 丙午 Bing Wu hour? That's a difference between night and day, literally!
https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Puyi,_Last_Chinese_Emperor
Sy Scholfield quotes quotes Harry Hussey, Venerable Ancestor: The Life and Times of Tz'u Hsi: "Tz'u Hsi reminded those present that when P'u Yi was born, on midnight of the fourteenth day of the First Month of the thirty-fourth year of the reign of Kuang Hsu". Whether 'midnight' means end of the day, as Scholfield interprets, is not clear from the quote itself. It could be also the beginning of the day. The conversion to 7 February is confirmed by the Astrodienst calender converter on the Chinese data entry page.
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Hi brother @JLim
I got Puyi's chart from 千里命稿 written by 韦千里.
I don't know how Master 韦千里 obtained Puyi's birth time but; i do know that Mr. 韦千里 was one of the most recognized practitioners of his time. (1911-1988)
The rich and powerful all wanted their charts read by him.
Here is his interpretation of Puyi's chart.
丙午 庚寅 壬午 丙午
有以宣统这命垂询者。余曰。满盘是财。偏枯之局。本无足贵。其为失国之君。良以身不任财。弃命而从之故耳。惟二午暗邀合宫之未。示藏己土正官。即命理约言所谓暗合格。是乃贵徵。故出身天潢。贵胄后裔。得继大统。惜行运不济。如壬辰运之犯火。乃从格所大忌。失其自由。任人支配。三十几交癸运。仍虽乐观。三十五以后。己甲午乙。一路东南木火。始堪吐气扬眉。激昂青云。五十五未运为暗合填实。寿终于此。余于庚午秋。得见一命。为丙午甲午壬午丙午。生于夏令。又为四午。合官最力。格局远在宣统之上。想其前程必有可观。乃一福州人。惜已忘其姓氏。兹论宣统命造。忽忆及此君。不胜神往焉。
I think there is one thing important to note. Harry Hussey was a western scholar writing about CiXi.
We don't know his level of understanding Chinese. He could of easily misinterpreted or mistranslated the words of CiXi.
Wheras 韦千里 was a actual native Chinese practitioner that actively gathered and interpreted charts.
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I think there is one thing important to note. Harry Hussey was a western scholar writing about CiXi.
We don't know his level of understanding Chinese. He could of easily misinterpreted or mistranslated the words of CiXi.
TenVirtues, that's a possibility. However, the source for the Wu (Horse) hour written in the Bazi book is not available, either. Let's do a quick comparison of the charts with the two different hours.
According to notes in astro-databank, based on a reliable biography, PuYi was born at midnight.
Let me plot the last emperor PuYi's chart with two hours:
- left: Zi hour
- right: Wu hour
Y M D H Y M D H
Bing Geng Ren Ren ------ Bing Geng Ren Bing
Wu Yin Wu Zi ------ Wu Yin Wu Wu
Based on the biography of the emperor, he died due to complications of kidney and heart disease.
- The left chart shows clashes between Water (kidney) and Fire (heart). Bing-Ren (Hour) in the Stems and Wu-Zi in the Branches. Ren Hour is more representative of organs in the lower body, such as kidney.
- The right chart does not show such clashes.
Based on the health aspect, I would say that the left chart is more likely than the right chart.
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Hi Brother @JLim
Well i don't know how to comment on the first chart you plotted since i don't use early late Zi Theory. I would either plot the chart as 庚子HR, or 癸巳DM 壬子HR.
I would not plot it as 壬午DM 壬子HR.
That being said a Water DM follow Fire Wealth Chart. Already has inherent Water/Fire huge imbalance in the chart.
Water follow Fire Wealth, also means Water is the 忌神(Harmful God). So having kidney/heart problems isn't something surprising.
Remember the old Poem that was given. 日干无气满盘财，弃命相从是福胎，运旺财官皆福贵，如逢相助反为灾.
Also Master Ren's Statement in DTS: 凡从财格，必要食务吐秀，不但功名显达，而且一生无大起倒凶灾。
Although PuYi is born in 寅 Month but 乙 or 甲 is not potruding this does not meet the requirements of 吐秀 as stated by Master Ren.
Which is why he had many ups and downs in life as well because 甲乙 Did not potrude.
The clash between water and fire has no mediator thus health problems related to these clashes is a possibility.
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Hi brother @JLim
I got Puyi's chart from 千里命稿 written by 韦千里.
I don't know how Master 韦千里 obtained Puyi's birth time but; i do know that Mr. 韦千里 was one of the most recognized practitioners of his time. (1911-1988)
The rich and powerful all wanted their charts read by him.
Here is his interpretation of Puyi's chart.
丙午 庚寅 壬午 丙午
有以宣统这命垂询者。余曰。满盘是财。偏枯之局。本无足贵。其为失国之君。良以身不任财。弃命而从之故耳。惟二午暗邀合宫之未。示藏己土正官。即命理约言所谓暗合格。是乃贵徵。故出身天潢。贵胄后裔。得继大统。惜行运不济。如壬辰运之犯火。乃从格所大忌。失其自由。任人支配。三十几交癸运。仍虽乐观。三十五以后。己甲午乙。一路东南木火。始堪吐气扬眉。激昂青云。五十五未运为暗合填实。寿终于此。余于庚午秋。得见一命。为丙午甲午壬午丙午。生于夏令。又为四午。合官最力。格局远在宣统之上。想其前程必有可观。乃一福州人。惜已忘其姓氏。兹论宣统命造。忽忆及此君。不胜神往焉。
I think there is one thing important to note. Harry Hussey was a western scholar writing about CiXi.
We don't know his level of understanding Chinese. He could of easily misinterpreted or mistranslated the words of CiXi.
Wheras 韦千里 was a actual native Chinese practitioner that actively gathered and interpreted charts.
Hello, @TenVirtues!
Would you to translate that fragment of Chinese text, please? Online translaters cannot to translate correctly and impossible to clear out something.
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Hi brother @JLim
I got Puyi's chart from 千里命稿 written by 韦千里.
I don't know how Master 韦千里 obtained Puyi's birth time but; i do know that Mr. 韦千里 was one of the most recognized practitioners of his time. (1911-1988)
The rich and powerful all wanted their charts read by him.
Here is his interpretation of Puyi's chart.
丙午 庚寅 壬午 丙午
有以宣统这命垂询者。余曰。满盘是财。偏枯之局。本无足贵。其为失国之君。良以身不任财。弃命而从之故耳。惟二午暗邀合宫之未。示藏己土正官。即命理约言所谓暗合格。是乃贵徵。故出身天潢。贵胄后裔。得继大统。惜行运不济。如壬辰运之犯火。乃从格所大忌。失其自由。任人支配。三十几交癸运。仍虽乐观。三十五以后。己甲午乙。一路东南木火。始堪吐气扬眉。激昂青云。五十五未运为暗合填实。寿终于此。余于庚午秋。得见一命。为丙午甲午壬午丙午。生于夏令。又为四午。合官最力。格局远在宣统之上。想其前程必有可观。乃一福州人。惜已忘其姓氏。兹论宣统命造。忽忆及此君。不胜神往焉。
I think there is one thing important to note. Harry Hussey was a western scholar writing about CiXi.
We don't know his level of understanding Chinese. He could of easily misinterpreted or mistranslated the words of CiXi.
Wheras 韦千里 was a actual native Chinese practitioner that actively gathered and interpreted charts.
Hello, @TenVirtues!
Would you to translate that fragment of Chinese text, please? Online translaters cannot to translate correctly and impossible to clear out something.
Hi @Latander
It is not surprising online translator's cannot correctly translate these fragments. There are many advanced technical bazi term's used in the explanation. Most modern practitioner's even Chinese Practitioners will have hard time understanding. Unless they had a deep understanding of bazi.
The main importance that is highlighted though is that PuYi's Chart is not just a follow wealth chart. PuYi's chart also meet criteria's for other chart structure's that are not used by today's modern practitioners.
Especially western or non-english practitioner's because they simply have never been taught.
Most people don't know what a 暗合格 structure is let alone understand what the term 暗合填实 means.
The interesting thing is i have been doing a lot of research into 空亡 KongWang and 填实. As explained in Trump's Chart.
I don't know if i posted it here or on another forum but; i've written multiple posts on Trumps Chart.
It seem's when it comes to the charts of some Leaders 空亡/填实 has huge implications.
This has a lot to do with most great charts are borderline. That is why it is often hard to tell the difference between a very bad chart and a very good chart.
I don't feel like going word for word translating this text maybe someone else will have time to translate but; i think it's important to explain some of the essence.
There are so many huge symbolic implication's to many things in PuYi's life and Qing Dynasty as a whole. 壬辰 Year marking the end of Qing Dynasty has many deep meanings.
Qing Dynasty 清朝 as a whole is represented as Water Dynasty. It took over 明朝 which was considered a Fire Dynasty. 壬辰 is a strong water year but; it is also the tomb of water.
The question is if this was coincidental or planned?
PuYi died in 丙申LP, 申 not only clashes 寅 The Main Mediator of the Chart and Useful God. It gives strength to 庚 in the HS.
Water No Longer is willing to submit to Fire. Structure is broken.
PuYi passing in 丁未AP 戌Month is also quite symbolic both his useful god and supportive god's enter tomb.
Another hugely symbolic aspect of PuYi's chart is that he is a Water DM follow Fire.
He is the last bit of Water representing the Qing Dynasty's Rule!
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