Fivearts.org
Library => Bazi => Topic started by: TaiYin on October 19, 2021, 06:05:34 AM
-
Hi,
I am curious to find out if Mang Pai read Bazi with Local or Adjusted hour?
Thanks
-
Well, if we look at the old members that used blindstyle back then and as far as we can see still do now, we can summarize it like this, I'd say:
Jlim is adjusting the hour.
Puppylove wasn't adjusting the hour.
Fireoperator wasn't adjusting the hour.
Han was very sure we have to adjust, now seems equally sure we shouldn't. Adding that the hour is based on the Moon now, I'm not commenting more on that, as I don't think its worth commenting on.
I'm personally adjusting the hour as my chart doesn't make much sense to me without adjusted hour.
While we have other members in the big forums now, that are saying they are using blindstyle, I do not know if they are adjusting or if what they are using is the same. Seem following of what they wrote would probably make it clear, as that stuff is easy to see(since they would have to ask the person they are reading for if they adjusted the chart etc.).
Considering all that I get the impression the actual schools don't adjust the hour.
While the modern system that seem to originate from Duen view to what the schools were teaching may be adjusting, but we don't seem to have seen that from translations and other info out there about them, so they probably didn't, either.
There are other factors, though. Adjusting the hour can't really be done without software to align with Solar Time. While I'm doing it without software for my own country, its on year by year base, we may be able to find some relatively good method for some summary of how to do it in all places around the world but there will be huge amounts of information one will need to remember to do it without software.
While adjusting to events is something we all would do if it seems a good idea.
Yet if someone is looking for accuracy, yet doesn't have Solar time calculations and conversations, only thing they can do is adjust the hour based on events to compensate the values that will be messed by Solar Time. That has other bonuses as sometimes the hour may be wrong for other reasons(wrong time of recording for example), so it has good and not so good parts.
But all old styles of reading that doesn't use adjustment, couldn't really use it before as the calculations for it are difficult to make exact without knowledge its unlikely they could had back then.
-
Adjusting the hour can't really be done without software to align with Solar Time.
So ... it's the best to use Voytek calculator: https://bazi-calculator.com
;D
All info is also here: http://fivearts.org/index.php?board=46.0
8)
-
[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
-
Jlim is adjusting the hour.
Puppylove wasn't adjusting the hour.
Fireoperator wasn't adjusting the hour.
Han was very sure we have to adjust, now seems equally sure we shouldn't. Adding that the hour is based on the Moon now, I'm not commenting more on that, as I don't think its worth commenting on.
I'm personally adjusting the hour as my chart doesn't make much sense to me without adjusted hour.
Thanks @Gmuli, the above did answered my question. ;D :)
I am just curious to find out if Mangpai has different 'sect' or 'group' that reads differently.
-
Jlim is adjusting the hour.
Puppylove wasn't adjusting the hour.
Fireoperator wasn't adjusting the hour.
Han was very sure we have to adjust, now seems equally sure we shouldn't. Adding that the hour is based on the Moon now, I'm not commenting more on that, as I don't think its worth commenting on.
I'm personally adjusting the hour as my chart doesn't make much sense to me without adjusted hour.
Thanks @Gmuli, the above did answered my question. ;D :)
I am just curious to find out if Mangpai has different 'sect' or 'group' that reads differently.
Looking at the materials in the big forums it seems there are many.
And there are many differences in styles etc. Some were using styles of reading that seemed not very good, possibly even worse then traditional.
I assume none of them will use Solar Time, however, as we get to the same problem - difficult to calculate it without software without a lot of astronomy knowledge mostly related to western view and math(equation of time https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_time) etc. I needed a lot of time to get that working in an accurate way and I'm not sure it exists in the Five Arts in their traditional view).
Since the systems are much older then software is I assume there was the understanding something is strange with the hour, but I doubt anyone could reverse engineer the math needed for it by the events. As its just too complex.So there was some adjusting then, but based on events more likely, or in other ways.
In summary I assume no blind style of reading uses that, currently, as practically that would have been impossible to add when the styles were developed. Then it comes to flexibility and if there is working system people are rarely flexible enough to look for ways to improve it with new knowledge and science.
Yet I also think they are adjusting the hour in their own way to compensate for it, at least the few styles that have good enough accuracy to realize something is different there.
P.S. Its not just the astronomy 4 minutes thing, though, there is also Daylight Saving. Some countries add that at some point, removed at others. Its 1 hour in some places, hour and a half in others and 2 in more. So Knowing all that will also require preparation with info that may not have been accessible back then.
-
thanks @Gmuli :)
I find my readings for some charts are mixed of using adjusted and non-adjusted. Although both do work because at most times the similarities of events and etc are almost 80-90%, unless a specific stuff are more apparent and obvious.
But thanks for replying!
-
thanks @Gmuli :)
I find my readings for some charts are mixed of using adjusted and non-adjusted. Although both do work because at most times the similarities of events and etc are almost 80-90%, unless a specific stuff are more apparent and obvious.
But thanks for replying!
I use it a little different in life, lately.
I know the charts of the people around me very well and we see from day to day and month to month how the elements reflect that. It allows to go very deep into the mechanic of it all. Though we do have some extras as we can change parts of the chart from time to time and see how events will change for that person. Then if needed go back to previous chart and observe there. Its very good for observing the fundamental base interactions and principles.
In that sense I don't have to adjust for bazi often, as there aren't many new charts I am focusing on. But if I'm reading new chart I use some shortcuts, for example if US and around Summer - subtract one hour. If Winter no need and stuff like that, allows to get the chart we read much closer to Solar Time without extra stuff. Then if its still needed I have my own calculators for it, but I rarely use them for bazi.
I do use them for Mei Hua, however.
-
Been going through some forums and other stuff online lately and I find it so interesting how there is no common consensus about what to use (solar time, beijing time, local time, dst or not).
Just wanted to share the perspective from school I used to be in.
We learned to use local time, without any conversion, no dst correction, no solar stuff, .... Their explanation is that the way humans are experiencing time at your moment of birth must be taken into account (when using it for metaphyics). For example, we have lunch at (around) 12h, we don't look at the sun. This is how our society is organised today and apparently that has an effect on the energy.
So nothing new, same as most lineages, but the explanation why might be interesting to read for some. Don't think I saw it explained online in this way. I will probably use how I learned for now. My own metaphysics skills are nowhere near good enough to come to my own conclusions, but hope that at one point I can see for myself what works and doesn't.
-
There are many studies done on this... We can see roosters keep internal clock of where the Sun is long, long time after they can't see it(as they have been in the dark underground where the test have been done for many months).
So part of some species know where the Sun is, even when we can't see it. There can be many explanations for this, from quantum fields(what we call 'archangels' in some western approaches), to pure response from the Earth to what its facing to many other parts...
So there is internal clock in many species. We may not know we know where the Sun is, but we can say the same for the directions. Most people do not realise where noth is at any given time, yet we know Feng Shui directions will still affect them, knowing or not.
And we don't know if humans can keep track of it as well. We do know 12:00 have little meaning for us, however, while the highest position of the Sun does affect us...
I'm not saying True Solar Time is always the best choice, just saying that there is more to it.
-
We do know 12:00 have little meaning for us
I guess that what the explanation was trying to say is that we as a society DID give it a meaning. And that all these people in a country following this same rhythm, made it a reality.
Is certainly not enough to fully convince me, but still an interesting way to look at it.
Assuming it is valid, then I guess it implies that countries on different latitude but for example one with dst and other without will have different hour pillar. This is something that could perhaps be tested.
-
Yea, but we can give the meaning to the directions as well. Say to someone North is in another direction, their bad and good directions are different as well, if that could work we would have the best arrangements in every house just by convincing the people to use it.
I get the idea of overriding it on base of what we do, but humanity is not very fixed to the 3 meals at the Sunrise, Noon, Sunset, we seem to be doing them all over the day all around the Earth(brunch etc.). At least in most countries I'm familiar with. Even more so if we take You rooster to be Yang decreasing half way in, so people leaving work etc. that is not done in 18:00 in my country now, its like 16-17, so aligned with Sun time.
So I think that can work for a situation when we choose stuff(like setting in WWG), but in other situations when there is some agreed shared reality that goes beyond humanity like directions or the Sun I have doubts.
As far as testing goes, its easier for me as my 4 pillars chart is different depending on Solar Time or clock time. And I would say Solar Time is around 95% of the influence. There is some of local time, of course as so many people use it there will be some validity in mass consciousness and I'm open to the idea for others will be more, but for me its very little influence.
And while I don't insist my bazi is perfect I don't have doubts on my own chart at this point. Don't want to post it, though.
-
I agree that solar time is the more obvious choice. Is why I'm definitely gonna have to try and verify this for myself at some point by looking at charts... Guess that's the only way you can find out how it works. Unless off course you could become so sensitive to energy that you can just feel the transitions...
Mine also changes with solar vs local+dst. I think the local one is better, which is why perhaps I don't want to give up on the idea of using that time ;D. But I recognize elements from both. Also not sure if I wanna post :P.
-
I use Mei Hua with Solar Time as well. WWG seems to be able to respond, as part of the Setting we may be able to ask what day to align to if we are near midnight. Haven't tested much, but gave it a few tries some time ago.
QMDJ seems to be the only exception, but that one is difficult to place,anyway.
For 4 Pillars.... Well, Hour seems to be able to show 'Far off', stuff far away or beyond distance, like the net or inner worlds etc.
So a difference between DM rooting in the Hour(identity flying way off), can be very noticeable even more so if the Hour is in Void. As we should be able to recognize difference between someone rooting identity far off in void and nothing like that happening. : )
And if that identity is connected to an organ and element that there are physical problems with we can relate it to other systems and find that out... So it becomes very specific, much can happen that one didn't even knew they had 4 pillars, yet still there.
-
Interesting
So a difference between DM rooting in the Hour(identity flying way off), can be very noticeable even more so if the Hour is in Void. As we should be able to recognize difference between someone rooting identity far off in void and nothing like that happening. : )
Interesting! By root you mean, exact same stem as dm in hour hidden (sub) stem? I guess that would make that person either rather gifted in the spiritual/paranormal or simply a lunatic :P. Probably not something you could directly see, unless you now that person very well.
-
Interesting! By root you mean, exact same stem as dm in hour hidden (sub) stem? I guess that would make that person either rather gifted in the spiritual/paranormal or simply a lunatic :P. Probably not something you could directly see, unless you now that person very well.
Yea. But difficult to miss it if you do know them...
-
[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
-
[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
-
Jlim is adjusting the hour.
Puppylove wasn't adjusting the hour.
Fireoperator wasn't adjusting the hour.
Han was very sure we have to adjust, now seems equally sure we shouldn't. Adding that the hour is based on the Moon now, I'm not commenting more on that, as I don't think its worth commenting on.
I'm personally adjusting the hour as my chart doesn't make much sense to me without adjusted hour.
imo, Puppylove and FireOperator read the given chart by assuming it's correct already (or sometimes other members had verified it before). They never ask whether the reading fit with the querent or not. And the querents doesn't say it too. Most often, they read about future that cannot be confirmed yet.
I don't mean to doubt their accuracy in reading because what they said is fit very much with the chart. they all are very logic, using consistent technique and interpretation. in short, their analysis is (i can believe) exactly what the chart shows.
i myself agree that in some cases, time adjusting is needed if birth hour given makes the chart doesn't match with querent's real life. sometimes, i wonder what time it is - the birth hour written in birth certificate, is it the time when baby come out of mother's body, or the first time they cry, etc. the worst is if it is the time when the nurse finally has time to write the report or she wrote as far as she remember ??? in nowadays, the time stated can be more accountable, but in old days i'm not sure they take it very importantly. also in old days, knowing time is relied in manual clock that can be slow down depend on battery, while nowadays we can see exact time on smartphone. few minutes could make big difference if it is borderline hour. and how if the birth hour is relied only on our elder's memory? it's really doubtful.
i think, readers in the past may do some birth hour verification too if things doesn't match. if they do it 100% manually, now we are helped by software.
-
i myself agree that in some cases, time adjusting is needed if birth hour given makes the chart doesn't match with querent's real life.
Sometimes, i wonder what time it is - the birth hour written in birth certificate, is it the time when baby come out of mother's body, or the first time they cry, etc. the worst is if it is the time when the nurse finally has time to write the report or she wrote as far as she remember ???
It's the time when the baby takes its first independent breath, which is usually 10 seconds after delivery. I know there is a member here who used to be a nurse, and hopefully she can share her past experience with birth time recording in hospitals
-
Hi,
I guess this is me?
Recording of the time was really secondary in our country. We usually took the baby from the doctor, weighed the baby, listened to the heart, suctioned and applied antibiotic cream to the eyes then we would look at the time. Sometimes we recorded the time first as the baby came out of the womb.
We always rounded the time off. Example: 10:01 or 10:02 it would be 10:00. If 10:03 or 10:04 it would be 10:05. This sometimes makes a big difference.
Also, we have to take into consideration if the typist didn't make a mistake from the recording as that was never checked against the chart. Sometimes instead of typing 2 then they would hit the wrong button and type 3. If the person went looking for her records years later then they would use the birth time of 3:00 instead it was actually 2:00. I have seen this happen.
I hope this helps........
-
Yes, Happy, I meant you :). Thank you for sharing your experience.
This shows that we must handle the Hour Pillar delicately. Currently I am analyzing a chart where after solar time adjustment the Hour Pillar would be H+1, which is 4 minutes after H.
However, after chart verification against life facts, I still use H anyway for the Bazi chart.
But H is without adjustment (wall clock time), does it mean that I don't believe in solar time adjustment? No, I do believe in solar, but the life facts say something else. This may be due to late recording by the nurse, after all 4 minutes is quite little.
-
thank you for sharing, Happy ❤️
that "typo by typist" really makes me want to cry 😭 :'( they dunno such 'small' mistake can ruin or give false big hope to the babies when they read their bazi later years.
btw, i found this article :
https://www.andrieyk.me/2015/09/23/penyakit-dan-penyembuhan-tertera-pada-destiny/
he is a ziping bazi practicioner. he found the given chart didn't match with reality. so, he had initiative to change Chen hour into Si. it turned out Si hour is fit very much with chart owner. later it's confirmed that the baby was born at 9:06. chen hour comes out from solar time adjustment. it might be hospital's clock accidentally going slow down or something that time so when the birthtime is adjusted, it becomes H-1.
somehow it shows me, mangpai or other method, they do not against time adjustment.
-
[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
-
Hi,
In my country, a resident with a doctor or two doctors are usually present for a c/section. There are two nurses, one is responsible for the baby and the other is responsible for handing the doctors instruments.
We are discussing when the baby takes its first breath, what if a baby is born not breathing and placed on life support or oxygen, what time do we use?
-
Cutting the umbilical cord in a child, this is one of the most important points, can also be taken into account.
-
Hi,
In my country, a resident with a doctor or two doctors are usually present for a c/section. There are two nurses, one is responsible for the baby and the other is responsible for handing the doctors instruments.
We are discussing when the baby takes its first breath, what if a baby is born not breathing and placed on life support or oxygen, what time do we use?
Not an expert in this matter, but my thoughts is that regardless whether the first breath time or the cutting the umbilical cord time is the correct one, it is unlikely that the doctor / nurse will record the time based on either of it. Most likely time is recorded after the whole delivery process is completed.
For example in the case if baby born not breathing, and let's say generally it'll take say 10 minutes to resuscitate the baby, then if so happen the RST based on the birth cert time is within 10 minutes of changing hour pillar, then best to do a birth time rectification based on actual life events.
-
Hi Jiyou, good points!
We are discussing when the baby takes its first breath, what if a baby is born not breathing and placed on life support or oxygen, what time do we use?
Hi Happy! Good point. I still don't have a conclusive answer and would use the time recorded by the hospital. Next, I would verify if the life facts match the birth date and time.
Premature babies are always difficult cases...