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Library => Liu Yao => Liu Yao Case Studies => Topic started by: Tientai ✝️ on August 28, 2018, 09:38:59 AM
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(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/28/Apersonaskingbydivinationforhisownillness..png)
Tientai ...
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Hi Tientai,
Thanks for so many cases you shared so far. I'm happy to learn from them.
For this 31st case, i guess the person thinks so much about his illness. It looks like very bad in winter. But when spring come, he'll feel better. In summer, when wu & wei get out of void, the illness would be healed.
I assume it is not just an influenza which made him doing a divination, so i count in months. But if it is, he'll get well on wei day.
:D :D :D
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Hi Tientai, is it possible to specify the question? Is he asking about the seriousness of the illness, or life expectancy, or is the current doctor helping with cure, or is he asking which organ is ailing, or when can he be cured? Etc. etc.
What about the age of the person (roughly)?
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Hi Tientai, is it possible to specify the question? Is he asking about the seriousness of the illness, or life expectancy, or is the current doctor helping with cure, or is he asking which organ is ailing, or when can he be cured? Etc. etc.
What about the age of the person (roughly)?
Ancient text is very brief on its description... !!
0. Yongshen -Useful God is Shi /Self line ....
1. The person that makes divination is Male. But don't know if is old.
2. He is father and lives in a family.
3. The reason making divination is becouse is serious sick.
4. The case example in Wild Crane book focus on quality status of Yuan Shen "Primordial God"
5. The factor of time is in search (When he could be healed or /when he could be died !!)
..I think gave some help..
Tientai
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0. Yongshen -Useful God is Shi /Self line ....
4. The case example in Wild Crane book focus on quality status of Yuan Shen "Primordial God"
a. Third Self line is weak by Month but strong by Day
b. Yuan Shen is Fifth line Shen Metal that produces Self line
c. Fourth line Wu Fire has a hidden movement 暗動. Because it's produced by First line Mao Wood, and clashed by Zi Day
d. Such hidden movement is not auspicious, because Wu Fire overcomes Shen Metal, the favorable Yuan Shen
e. Chou Month is better than Yin Month, because Chou Earth (although it's a Metal Tomb) protects Shen Metal
f. If he cannot get cured in Chou Month, then in Yin Month things are not looking good. Because Yin Month is the Month Break 月破 for Shen
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ANSWER OF QUIZ
(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/28/Apersonaskingbydivinationforhisownillness..png)
自占病，世為用神，
in case he divines his own illness, the Shi Self line is taken as Useful God [Yongshen],
世爻亥水，子日拱之，又得申金元神動、而相生，乃不死之症。
Shi Self line is Hai water, all Zi water day all these happened, by getting Shen Metal as Primordial God [Yuanshen] moving line, as engended [Xiang] (from month branch)and born [Sheng ] [.. from changed line], therefore will not die from this disease.
獨疑申金墓於丑月，其不能生乎？
Only there is suspicion that Shen metal goes to tomb in the Chou Monthly EB,
請伊母再占一卦，
requesting his mother to make divination once more another Hexagram.
(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/30/Mother-makes-divination-for-her-child-when-recover-12.png)
母占子，子孫為用神。
A Mother makes divination for her child, then Offspring is the Useful God [Yongshen ].
丑土子孫，雖逢月建，不宜動化寅木回頭之剋，目下無妨，交春木旺土衰，必死。
In Chou earth there is Offspring, even though meeting with the same Month EB, is not suitable [this line ] that is moving and change to Yin wood for it turn back and hurt [source line Chou earth ].At present there is not any harm, When Spring season begins Wood will be Prosperous [Wang ] and Earth in decline [Shuai ], certainly will die.
又合前卦亥水世爻，得申金元神相生，寅月沖去申金，則危矣。
Again joining the first Hexagram’s Hai water in Shi self line, and getting the Shen metal Primordial God [Yuanshen moving line] that engended [Xiang] (from month branch)and born [Sheng.. from changed line ], when Yin wood month comes there is a month Clash law [Chong, Break ] with Shen metal, that expressing Danger.
果卒於交春之日。Indeed died one day in Springtime .
大凡占病，一家俱可代占，合而決之，生死之月日可知矣。
Generally on divination for illness, any member of family can be used [by asking and making new divination ], and all (informations) gathered for taking decisions, for life and death the day and month must be certain to Know.
故卦宜多占，斷禍福而更穩。
The reason why is proper when getting a Hexagram to make many divinations, is for further steadiness when facing with Disaster and Happiness.
前卦申金元神，動而生世，當許申日退災。
In the initial hexagram there is Shen metal Primordial God [Yuanshen], moving and producing Shi self line, is proper to promise that on Shen metal day that disaster can retreat.
因見後卦丑土子孫變寅木之剋，寅月必危，始悟寅月沖去申金則危矣。
The reason is in the second hexagram that Chou earth Offspring moving line change to Yin wood that returns to hurt [Chou earth ], so Yin Wood month will be dangerous, only then will be aware when the law of Yin wood EB month Clash [Chong, Break ] with Shen metal that expressing Danger.
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a. Third Self line is weak by Month but strong by Day
b. Yuan Shen is Fifth line Shen Metal that produces Self line
c. Fourth line Wu Fire has a hidden movement 暗動. Because it's produced by First line Mao Wood, and clashed by Zi Day
d. Such hidden movement is not auspicious, because Wu Fire overcomes Shen Metal, the favorable Yuan Shen
e. Chou Month is better than Yin Month, because Chou Earth (although it's a Metal Tomb) protects Shen Metal
f. If he cannot get cured in Chou Month, then in Yin Month things are not looking good. Because Yin Month is the Month Break 月破 for Shen
I agree with Master@JLim. .. is totally correct on this quiz .. many thanks for desiphering. ..
I would add some helpful quotations :
1. The initial Hexagram 13 and producted one 56 both are in Li palace ... this is bad when reffering with "tomb" or "returning soul "
2. The last Hexagram 30 is also in Li palace and "fate" with Liu Chong or 6 Clash ... that means that there wouldn't be any recovery ...!!
Your opinions please ...
Tientai
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Hi Tientai,
I agree with Master@JLim. .. is totally correct on this quiz .. many thanks for desiphering. ..
I would add some helpful quotations :
1. The initial Hexagram 13 and producted one 56 both are in Li palace ... this is bad when refering to "tomb" or "returning soul "
I don't follow this rule, because I mainly analyze the hexagram using the Six Lines or Liu Yao system. Anyway, Returning Soul hexagram for an illness does not necessarily result in death. For example this: Quiz 2 -A man asked Yijing about his wife's illness (http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=114.0) --> result is wife was cured!
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I don't follow this rule, because I mainly analyze the hexagram using the Six Lines or Liu Yao system. Anyway, Returning Soul hexagram for an illness does not necessarily result in death. For example this: Quiz 2 -A man asked Yijing about his wife's illness (http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=114.0) --> result is wife was cured!
But on this example in quiz 2 .... [Gathering Together-Inner-Zhen-Gua - 45 as initial Hexagram
Holding Together-Return Soul-Tomb-Kun-Gua - 8 as produced Hexagram ]... don't share the same palace ... the first is Zhen Gua and the produced is Kun Gua ... so this principle is not fulfilled...
This is an optional on checking.... I found this accidentally ..
Here is an example for Qian Gua ...
(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/30/602939897_m.jpg)
Or
(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/30/7700599_201311171725150614.jpg)
Tientai
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But on this example in quiz 2 .... [Gathering Together-Inner-Zhen-Gua - 45 as initial Hexagram
Holding Together-Return Soul-Tomb-Kun-Gua - 8 as produced Hexagram ]... don't share the same palace ... the first is Zhen Gua and the produced is Kun Gua ... so this principle is not fulfilled...
Some correction... The first or base hexagram belongs to to Dui Palace, and not Zhen Palace.
The produced or changed hexagram belongs to Kun Gua, that's correct.
I wasn't aware that they have to be in the same palace for the rule of Returning Soul hexagram type to be valid.
What I follow are the Six Lines rules. You may observe more illness and death cases to make a conclusion about the hexagram type, which I know is not part of Six Lines of Liu Yao.
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.. yes Your observation is very valuable ...!!
I don't insist on this ... perhaps one inch inclination on the start will be many miles deviation after some time ... !!
I must correct the app. Once again ... Gathering Together-Inner-Zhen-Gua - 45 .. is Dui Gua
Thank you
Tientai
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(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/28/Apersonaskingbydivinationforhisownillness..png)
(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/30/Mother-makes-divination-for-her-child-when-recover-12.png)
Something interesting to note! In both divinations, the Officer lines in the base hexagram are the same: Officer+Tiger+Hai Water in the Li Palace. We know that Officer gives a hint on the nature of illness. Li is Fire = blood, infection. White Tiger also pertains to injury or cut. Could it be that he had a serious wound that led to blood loss and infection? In ancient times, injuries like this could be detrimental to life because antibiotics were not well developed yet.
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hi all,
i missed milion miles from the right answer :)
when i saw the hexagram, i noted in sibling line bcoz i ever read that in illness divination it can represent immunity. then i thought if only fire became stronger, the disease (officer line) couldn't overcome it anymore :p
thanks for another lesson anyway :)
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This case study is a bit puzzling. The diviner uses a somewhat unusual framework.
One asks for oneself:
- in questions of illness the Officer is usually the illness.
- The Officer is sitting in the Subject line. The illness is ongoing, therefore it is logical that it is seated in the Subject line.
- If the Officer is the disease, the Asset engenders the Officer, the Sibling controls the Asset, the Child controls the Officer.
- If this framework were used it would change the reading completely.
So it seems that the frame of reference sticks to the Subject being the Yong shen, and the Officer sitting on the line is obviated. But if the officer is obviated, what six kin represents the disease? One would say, what attacks the subject line is the disease. But it turns out that it is the Offspring who attacks the subject line, and the Offspring usually means cure, remedy, health...
is related to what was discussed here:
When Ji Shen is sitting in the Subject line
https://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=958.0 (https://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=958.0 When Ji Shen is sitting in the Subject line)
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hi all,
i missed milion miles from the right answer :)
when i saw the hexagram, i noted in sibling line bcoz i ever read that in illness divination it can represent immunity. then i thought if only fire became stronger, the disease (officer line) couldn't overcome it anymore :p
thanks for another lesson anyway :)
Isn't immunity rather a modern word?
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(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/28/Apersonaskingbydivinationforhisownillness..png)
(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/08/30/Mother-makes-divination-for-her-child-when-recover-12.png)
Something interesting to note! In both divinations, the Officer lines in the base hexagram are the same: Officer+Tiger+Hai Water in the Li Palace. We know that Officer gives a hint on the nature of illness. Li is Fire = blood, infection. White Tiger also pertains to injury or cut. Could it be that he had a serious wound that led to blood loss and infection? In ancient times, injuries like this could be detrimental to life because antibiotics were not well developed yet.
Do you have a source foe li being blood? I use the body part eyes for li.
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Hi all,
FYI. My translation of the case study using the 1691AD version of Zengshan Buyi (ZSBY) (see ZSBY-3 pdf in https://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=1985.0):
[Ex.10-13a. H/F to F/M]
又如丑月戊子日。自占病。得天火同人變旅卦。
Another example: Chou month, Wu Zi day. Person divining about own illness. Obtained Heaven-Fire Fellowship [H/F], transforming to Traveling gua [F/M].
子 戌 丶應 丶
財 申金 ○ 丶丶
兄午 丶 丶
鬼 亥水 丶世 丶
子 丑 丶丶 丶丶
父 卯木 ○ 子 辰土 丶丶
Heaven-Fire Fellowship [H/F] Fire-Mountain Traveling [F/M]
Son-Daughter Xu earth 丶 Object Brother-Sister Si fire 丶
Wife-Wealth Shen metal ○ Son-Daughter Wei earth 丶丶
Brother-Sister Wu(h) fire 丶 Wife-Wealth You metal 丶
Officer-Ghost Hai water 丶 Subject Wife-Wealth Shen metal 丶
Son-Daughter Chou earth 丶丶 Brother-Sister Wu(h) fire 丶丶
Father-Mother Mao wood ○ Son-Daughter Chen earth 丶丶
自占病。世爲用神。世爻亥水。子日拱之。又得申金元神。動而相生。乃不死之症。
Person divining about own illness. Subject is Useful God. Subject line is Hai water. Zi day clasps it. Also obtained Shen metal Source God moving and producing. So, not die from illness.
疑其申金墓于丑月。恐不能生。
[But have] some doubt, given that Shen metal Tomb(p) is in Chou month. Afraid that [the Source God] cannot produce.
[Ex.10-13b. F/F to F/H]
請伊母再占一卦。得離卦變火天大有
Invited his mother to again divine a gua. Obtained Li gua [F/F], transforming to Fire-Heaven Great Reward [F/H].
兄 巳 丶世
子 未 丶丶
財 酉 丶
鬼 亥 丶應
子 丑土 ㄨ 父 寅木
父 卯 丶
Li as Fire [F/F] Fire-Heaven Great Reward [F/H]
Brother-Sister Si fire 丶 Subject Brother-Sister Si fire 丶
Son-Daughter Wei earth 丶丶 Son-Daughter Wei earth 丶丶
Wife-Wealth You metal 丶 Wife-Wealth You metal 丶
Officer-Ghost Hai water 丶 Object Son-Daughter Chen earth 丶
Son-Daughter Chou earth ㄨ Father-Mother Yin(t) wood 丶
Father-Mother Mao wood 丶 Officer-Ghost Zi water 丶
母占子。子孫爲用神。丑土子孫雖逢月建。不宜動化寅木。囘頭之剋。目下雖則無妨。交春木旺土衰。必死。
Mother divining about son. Son-Daughter is Useful God. Chou earth Son-Daughter although meeting Month Builder, is not suitable [as it is] moving and changing into Yin(t) wood to turn back to counter. At present although without hindrance, in springtime, wood Prosperous(s), earth Declining(s). Certain to die.
又合前卦。亥水世爻。得申金元神相生。寅月冲去申金則危矣。
Also accords with prior gua Hai water Subject line, obtaining Shen metal Source God producing. [But when] Yin(t) month clashes out Shen metal, then dangerous!
果卒于交春之日。
Result: He died on a spring day.
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Hey Duesouth, All,
I have always had some issues with the character 拱 - gong.
Initially I have seen it used in relationship to a Ban San He - half combination.
i.e., Shen Chen, where Zi is missing. Here 拱 means arch or surround.
So this phrase 子日拱之 has me a little confused.
But after a little research, I think the phrase means (the) Day - Zi, supports it (Hai).
ren
@Sacrar
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Second hexagram seems clear, not much to mention there... Returning Spirit does seem to happen often in medical cases for the person passing, there was a book from a very high ranking MD in a hospital that asked before every case he had... Had thousands of questions. Nothing is 100% I guess, but Returning Spirit as passing away and Wondering Spirit as falling in coma seems to have happened very often.
Does it need for the hexagrams to be in the same palace - I do not know, I assume not, as that would cut the cases by 8 and will be much more difficult to notice.
So is the second divination a sure death... In my view that is way too strong of a divination no matter the hexagram. More fair approach would be just to mention in the spring his line will be much, much weaker and restricted...
What do we have in the first case, however... At Yin month Shen woud be clashed away... Here it comes up to what line we view as the one interacting in such case. I view that Wei interacts at line 5, but carries the intention and images of Shen. In this case Shen would be clashed by Yin and Wei while suppose to support him, but will actually weaken him, as Wei instead.
His line is strong in the day and weak in the month...
So far nothing here suggests death, his line is weak and may be somewhat weaker in Yin month, but nothing that severe.
Line 1 is moving... Also transforms to Earth. Also weakening him and more clearly this time.
If we take the idea he viewed the line interactions as different and view that Shen was active instead of Wei(his view can change the outcome, as many of us I would guess have noticed by now), then Shen being clashed by Yin, Yin weakening his line slightly, Wei weakening him and Chen weakening him does look worse.
There is more here, there are images of death, but I don't think that has been in the open, so can't go more into it.
Is Li showing blood... This goes into our view to health, blood does seem to carry similar images, it grasps attention when one sees it, its of course red in most cases, it can't sustain for long, very fast starts tranforms to other elements(earth)... So from outsider point of view it seems to be fire.
But then for its functions in the body, it can carry many other images, depending what angle one wants to view it from.
What was the actual problem... I'm not sure the system will show it with TCM terminology if the person divining and reading it doesn't know that... He is water line at third position and being weakened by earth... The idea water can show immunity is something I kinda agree with, event though , yea, no immunity in this way in old text it seems...
So from everyday point of view, he is pulled back in(water), the environment is rushing him showing very strong processes in him(white tiger)... Then meeting with different inert structures around him that just exhaust him. So like someone trying to bring a change, to accomplish something in environment that can not be changed... So he is exhausted more and more. Then in Yin month that is taken away by very strong new developments that make what he is fighting for out of place(yin clashing shen, also wood weakening him while he is still in white tiger line).
In that case from a purely human point of view, someones aims may become empty and that will affect his health , as it comes with the idea what he wants can not be accomplished, first because the environment is weakening the attempt, second because new developments make it out of place, as well in the strping.
Is this a clear divination for someone dying... In my view, no. Nothing here clearly shows it, there are some images of weakness together with images of death around, but they both are somewhat often to see... So if I had something like that would never say the person will pass away, there is no info to think that clearly. But there is enough to say he may be in much weaken condition in the coming spring and Yin month.
Without knowing more, may be wiser to not count too much on these examples, though, we don't know what happened, we don't know how much precision there was in recording all that, we don't even know how the 2 would read their own hexagrams and that may be important as well... So its curious, but taking it too seriously may be more a hindrance then help in learning all this, imo.
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@ren
I have also come across the translation of 拱 as arch or arching. As you say, in Bazi it indicates a half combination.
In ZSBY (1691AD version), the authors elaborate on 拱 towards the end of Chapter 17:
總註旺之者。爻之帝旺于日也。比之者。爻與日月同也。扶之拱之者。爻與日月同類也 (*)
In summary: Prosperous [when] a line is Prosperous(p) on the day. Friends [when] a line is with day or month the same [kind]. Assist or clasp, [when] a line is with day and month the same kind.
The authors seem to be saying 旺 Prosperous = 比 Friends = 扶 Assist = 拱 Clasp. In this instance of 子日拱之, the 亥 Hai line is minor Prosperous. (I use the word minor loosely, as presumably the assist from month is stronger (major).)
(*) Note: These sentences are in the 1691AD version of ZSBY, they may not necessarily be found in later versions of ZSBY.
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@Random88,
The hypothesis that 歸䰟 Returning Soul/Spirit hexagram could indicate a higher likelihood of death and 遊魂 Wandering Soul/Spirit hexagram a higher likelihood of coma is interesting.
It is pretty much in the investigative spirit of Wild Crane the MD you mentioned researched and discovered new Liu Yao relationships. Is there a English version of that MD?s research paper?
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@ren
拱 gong. I did find it hard to translate. One of the meanings of this character is: a hand gesture of two hands brought together palm-to-palm, fingers-to-fingers. The gesture is the one we see in Chinese movies when a monk brings his two hands together before bowing, or when some people do so before praying in a church or temple. As an emoticon, the gesture is used to mean ?thank you? or ?praying for you?.
帝旺 di wang. Yes, I also took it to mean the Prosperous(p) phase of the 12 Growth Phases. ((p) = phase).
比 bi. I like your idea of distinguishing 比 versus 扶 / 拱. It aligns with the use of 比 in Bazi (i.e. same yin-yang polarity and element) = Friend/Companion.
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@Random88,
The hypothesis that 歸䰟 Returning Soul/Spirit hexagram could indicate a higher likelihood of death and 遊魂 Wandering Soul/Spirit hexagram a higher likelihood of coma is interesting.
It is pretty much in the investigative spirit of Wild Crane the MD you mentioned researched and discovered new Liu Yao relationships. Is there a English version of that MD?s research paper?
Well... I do respect investigative spirit... But if you mean publish paper in western academy places, I really, really doubt that, although maybe he did, no idea...
Anyway, if I remember correctly(was a while ago) the book was this I think:
Medical I Ching: The Oracle of the Healing Within by Miki Shima
The fascinating thing is this was not Wen Wang Gua book, he doesn't seem to knew why returning and wondering spirit are called such, about branches, other palaces etc. he only saw the effect in practice combined with the idea this 16 hexagrams are called that... And that makes it even more convincing in my view...
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