Fivearts.org
Library => Bazi => Topic started by: herut on December 13, 2018, 06:54:25 PM
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Hello,
I was asked a question recently regarding if the Bazi Season Structure changed for people in the southern hemisphere. When I say season from the perspective of what I've been taught, Summer=Fire, Earth= Transitional Period, Metal= Autumn, Water= Winter, and Wood= Spring. So why doesn't translate when calculating Bazi Charts? Right now it's winter in the Northern Hemisphere and Summer in the Southern Hemisphere, shouldn't the month branch reflect this?
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This is one of these questions, like "how to calculate strength of DM", or how to find facing/sitting in Flying Star.
While it is something that everyone seems to be doing, when it comes to clear explanation that usually doesn't seem to work so well...
In this specific case, its similar problem. Everyone will have their own view to it and in other times and places we have gone in great details about that... But at the end if you need it practically, I would advice just make 2 charts check events and choose whatever seems to reflect it better. If you don't need it practically, just forget about it, it's always a mess to go into in forums, for some reason even though in my view its very simple and clear if we look how the Solar Calendar works.
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So why doesn't translate when calculating Bazi Charts?
Well, well, well...
so if you are in Singapore (1N16) there is summer but if you are in Padang (1S39) there is winter ! ;D ;) 8)
Regards, RapaNui
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From what we know so far BaZi practitioners there do invert the branches(multiple examples from chart read in the other forums and all of them month branches were inverted). Now, how that will fit the equator and the zones near it is something that there have never been any studies as far as I'm aware, so its difficult to guess.
Even if we decide to say that practitioners there just don't know what they are doing, the idea in the shortest day of the year, in freezing cold with snow falling all around us, to look around and proudly say "Ahh... Wu horse month is all around us again." ...
Especially when we use True Solar Time(and that is basically positioning Wu Horse branch in the middle of the highest position of the Sun(Noon), to reflect the real nature situation)...
So when it comes to time we reflect the length of the day setting the strongest Fire branch in the middle of Noon, but when it comes to the year... Of course not, BaZi shows what it shows, its universal and any adjustments are unnecessary... Doesn't seem to make much sense, does it?
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So would you just adjust the Month Branch? Or the Heavenly Stem As well?
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So would you just adjust the Month Branch? Or the Heavenly Stem As well?
Well, lets think about it logically. Right now, we can look at the BaZi all around the Earth. At this specific time, so much like the globe has frozen and we view how they would view the hour pillar in the lighter and darker half(dividing them vertically, as the day and night does).
As there are different time zones, the further a place is from the Sun, the more closer to Zi Rat branch it will move. The closer it is to Noon(Sun in its highest position in the day) the closer to Wu branch it will be.
This we do already, it comes with the idea of Time zones. So we already compensate for the different places of the globe, otherwise right now in Hawaii it will be same time as it is in EU.
It is not, however. Right now, where I am is around 18, while in Hawaii will be around 6 am.
To compensate for the light we have made time zones, we say it is night in Hawaii, so the BaZi reflects that as well.
We move both - stem and branch to fit into 6 am in the morning for Hawaii.
While it is still 18 PM here and in here we do have both stem and branch reflecting that.
All this is dividing the globe vertically. The darker half we say is night and the timezones and hours are showing to what degrees it is night. Same for the lighter one.
Summary - solar time adjustment we set Zi Rat in the middle of midnight and Wu horse at Noon dividing the whole globe vertically and looking at the light from the Sun.
Making the same horizontally and again it makes all the logic in the world we will move both stem and branch, as this is what we are doing when making the same alignment for True Solar Time.
Now, horizontally the movement away from the Sun is because of the 23 degree tilt the Earth has, however it is exactly as real as day/night cycles, as we can see in the seasons.
Now, if you aren't using True Solar TIme, it won't make much sense to invert the branches for the seasons as well. If you are, it makes sense to be both as when adjusting the time we move both.
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Question:
If I replace Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water, with Sour, Bitter, Sweet, Pungent and Salty; in short, the Five Elements with Five Tastes instead.
Would you still need to change the Seasons to match?
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If Inverting the month pillar is the issue, then I would say yes. Because the month represents a season, and if the season in the North is deep winter Rat, and the season in the South in the highest point of summer (Wu like conditions) but has a Rat pillar, then I think its inconsistent. Unless we get rid of the seasonal approach to Bazi altogether. As far as the flavors go, I don't think that really gets into this conversation much.
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I find the flavour example very enlightening: the chart describes the person, not the weather.This is what I understand :)
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Question:
If I replace Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water, with Sour, Bitter, Sweet, Pungent and Salty; in short, the Five Elements with Five Tastes instead.
Would you still need to change the Seasons to match?
I don't think the tastes fit very well. The colors of the foods either. White foods are metal, in theory, great, but when we have so many exceptions, because of taste or other factors, then it isn't a rule, its just trying to use a system on a framework that doesn't really fit into it.
So no, at their practical use doesn't seem to fit very well to reality and it seems just approximation, so a familiar division can be used somewhere else, it wouldn't be needed. Just my view, of course and I don't know a lot about the practical aspect of the five elements in food.
However, the light from the Sun seems to be playing some role in all this.
I get the idea of using what is presented, but outside of QMDJ and most of Yi Jing I don't think what is presented should be taken right away. We already make calculation, make stems/branches etc. so it already isn't taken right away, we now are clearing out how much steps are needed to arrive at what is presented, but no one takes it as it is.
Members in the old forum that seem to have connection to the blind schools were strongly supporting the idea hour pillar shouldn't be adjusted.
I guess the idea was BaZi chart was taken like we take a Hexagram for example. We use what comes to us.
That was one thing that bothered me for a while, as if they are doing it there had to be more behind it. However, with time and rereading the examples some other explanation started to become more likely.
If we look into the examples they read, it seems there was always a carefulness when it came to the hour. Often the assumption the hour may be wrong and trying to find the more suitable one...
Now, if we just take whatever is given, there shouldn't ever be finding more suitable hour, as the one presented should always be correct. If we look for more suitable one or assume it may not be correct means we already think underneath it all that there is more correct hour, we just don't want to start with that idea right away.
While if adjusting the solar time is correct, then people working without adjusting it, but can read the charts well, will be very careful when working with the hour and it will show up exactly in this way. They are skipping a step in the system and trying to compensate for it, but the step is as important as all the others, just difficult to calculate without a lot of math.
Again would make sense to be skipped by blind practitioners, as calculating True Solar Time without software is more challenging. So rules like this are logical to come up.
Same counts for WWG, that would make rules like "don't read hexagrams around midnight" etc. The reason would be that they aren't adjusting, but they are clearly seeing around midnight(where the solar time adjustment would count for WWG), something won't be right.
So basically both groups, the people that don't agree with Solar Time,but can read charts well and the people that do, seems to be adjusting it, just in different ways. As I said in my view month adjustment is same as Solar Time one, its just for month branches instead of the hour. And is less popular as so much fewer people are in the other hemisphere then they are in other timezones.
And even if we forget all that, we can just think of what the Solar Terms are suppose to represent.
Imagine in Solar Term:
22.Winter solstice 冬至 or "Winter begins" as it is sometimes translated.
How much sense it makes to be in "Winter begins" and "Winter Solstice" Solar Term, when all around you its Summer Solstice and the start of Summer as it is in the other hemisphere...
So even if we use what is presented, what is presented is the beginning of Winter even in the Solar Term names and its starting place for its longitude/place of the Sun as well. If we are somewhere where the Summer just started, it should make some sense to think is this what is actually presented or the system need another layer of movement to be fully ready for use.
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I find the flavour example very enlightening: the chart describes the person, not the weather.This is what I understand :)
Using random information to get to a conclusion is all well and good.
But BaZi charts aren't random. Solar terms start with equinoxes and solstices, hour pillar is reflecting the changes of day to night etc.
We can say this things aren't related, but then we aren't practicing five arts, we are just guessing while finding meaning in info that we view as meaningless. That can also work. But not everyone would agree the calendar is meaningless and is only used to provide random info we can use that isn't related to anything.
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Let's suppose that an observer in Northern hemisphere .. And it is 22 December and at 24: 00 ... looking at Northern sky, then the Ladder of the Big Dipper has taken the unique downward position pointing to earth ... This also determines the start of the Winter Solstice. Solar term.
the point it shows is the Astrological earthly branch Zi water ...
if another observer on Southern hemisphere (on the same longitude with first observer) could see (probably couldn't see Northern stars) with some way the same hour and month would notice the same direction of the Ladder as the viewer on Northern hemisphere. !!!
It is reasonable that next earthly branches are the same for both hemispheres on months. .. the "Celestial Clock is what determines and influences these Universal positions of Earthy Branches on 28 constellations ... and not by the Hemispheres of the Earth (rather Earth is influenced by them) !! ".
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Tientai
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Let's suppose that an observer in Northern hemisphere .. And it is 22 December and at 24: 00 ... looking at Northern sky, then the Ladder of the Big Dipper has taken the unique downward position pointing to earth ... This also determines the start of the Winter Solstice. Solar term.
the point it shows is the Astrological earthly branch Zi water ...
if another observer on Southern hemisphere (on the same longitude with first observer) could see (probably couldn't see Northern stars) with some way the same hour and month would notice the same direction of the Ladder as the viewer on Northern hemisphere. !!!
It is reasonable that next earthly branches are the same for both hemispheres on months. .. the "Celestial Clock is what determines these Universal positions of Earthy Branches ... and not the Hemispheres of the Earth !! ".
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Tientai
But the southern observer would not be experiencing the Winter Solstice, it would be experiencing the Summer Solstice. So, how do the qualities associated with Rat, for example, apply to the Southern Observer during a Rat Month?
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But the southern observer would not be experiencing the Winter Solstice, it would be experiencing the Summer Solstice. So, how do the qualities associated with Rat, for example, apply to the Southern Observer during a Rat Month?
.... Frankly speaking my opinion is in accordance to Ancient Chinese thesis and Masters of CM...!!!
Many researches must conduct in this new Age... for Southern Hemisphere.
Very significant is the research of W.K. Chu in appendix of his book "The astrology of I ching"
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Tientai
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I have that book. I'm going to revisit it.
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What Master Heluo says:
http://9starki-4pillarsbazi-fengshui-heluo.com/feng-shui-for-southern-hemisphere-24-solar-terms-%e4%ba%8c%e5%8d%81%e5%9b%9b%e7%af%80%e6%b0%a3/
8)
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
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Fair enough, but Joey Yap isn't using True Solar Time as well. : )
All of this we have been through in the other forums and we have talked about Heluo articles and everything else...
I get reposting all of it may be good idea for new members, but I personally don't see the point of saying the same stuff over and over again.
I personally still haven't seen any explanation why when the Solar Terms are based on the Solstices and Equinoxes(what the Solar Longitude is divided by), the seasons shouldn't be inverted.
When that question comes up the only response I have seen so far is posting some article of a person that things chart shoulnd't be inverted. Yes, we know there are a lot of those and we have read them and talked about many of them before... Doesn't really answer the question, however...
And there are many articles and people all over the world saying one or the other... We can post as many as we want, if someone meanwhile finds some explanation why seasons(Solstices/Equinoxes) doesn't matter for month branch, I will be more then happy to read.
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I want to add something more ... and reffering for Bazi only..
This kind of fortune telling art is based on "calculating the time / time counter " with 60 binomials (circles ) ..
Has ancient origin and started from Huang Ti Emperor 2696 B.C.. .
The years are calculating on a continue linear basis of 60 binomials ..
Months also follow this 60 s ..
Days again following coniniusly this linear basis of 60 s.
Hours .. as well. .
So if now due to difference of hemispheres change this "time counter" and invent another parallel to original .. we make mistake on time calculation ...
We confuse the continuous basis of time calculation with another one that we try to replace the 60 month binomial with another one .!!
Is absurd to believe that there are two time counters in existence. One for the north hemisphere and another for the southern ...!!
Again Bazi is calculating the good and bad luck and choices from the time of birth .. not focus on the seasonal climate but takes account the shift weather abnormalities ..!!
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Tientai
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There was a whole thing with a change in the calendar where they had problems with a specific Emperor and some scientists(well, monks really, but in that case we can say it was scientists) from the western world few centuries ago. The question came up to who can calculate the solstice more accurately and they did better... I don't remember the whole story, shouldn't be difficult to find. But the day is continues, that is shared with the moon calendar as well, but the months are different.
Considering in his QMDj/JMDJ book Jack Chiu says similar change was made in Tang Dynasty I guess that was the timeframe.
After the calendar change now they reflect the movement of the Sun in the Solar Calendar, I have searched a lot never found out how it was calculated before.
It is one of the reasons people say Chai Bu count is more accurate, as the whole base is different now when it comes to the months. But more on that in that post in that topic.
So in that sense, while the day 60 jia/zi is a stream that goes back very very far, the months in the way we view them today aren't very old. Tang Dynasty was 618–907(still old of course, but in comparison with the day - very recent).
Anyway, that same reasoning we can use for using Chinese time everywhere. If we use local time(solar or not), it suggest we are making changes in very old and very well established system, no matter if it is about the months or not. :)
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MY OWN EXPERIENCE WITH SOUTHERN PEOPLE:
Indonesia is big enough to encompass two hemispheres, roughly half of the people are in the North and the other half in the South. I am an Indonesian, with Indonesian clients coming 50% from the North and 50% from the South.
I do not invert the month pillar when a client is born in the South, and my current city happens to be located in the South too. In general, I don't see any problems interpreting their Bazi charts without inversion. In fact, when I test a few charts by inverting the month pillar, I get confused with my own analysis.
And as most of you here know, I do use True Solar Time.
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So if now due to difference of hemispheres change this "time counter" and invent another parallel to original .. we make mistake on time calculation ...
We confuse the continuous basis of time calculation with another one that we try to replace the 60 month binomial with another one .!!
Is upsurb to believe that there are two time counters in existence. One for the north hemisphere and another for the southern ...!!
Again Bazi is calculating the good and bad luck and choices from the time of birth .. not focus on the seasonal climate but takes account the shift weather abnormalities ..!!
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Tientai
I agree very much with the logic there. Alas, I also understand the logic of the Southern school, although I don't agree with it.
Reading your commentary, Tientai, it has just occurred to me that we can also test the Southern school on Liu Yao (Six Lines) hexagrams! Because Liu Yao is also a predictive system that takes into account the time dimension. It allows a more direct testing environment, because in Liu Yao we mostly analyze against the Month and Day Branches. We don't even need to look at the Month or Day Stem.
The change of the Month Branch can result in a difference of Getting the Month vs. Month Break. This would often be a huge difference, that's why I said that it's a "more direct testing environment". I will look at my Liu Yao cases for those clients who were located in the Southern hemisphere when they tossed the coins. Those will be shared in new topics... :) :)
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What Master Heluo says:
http://9starki-4pillarsbazi-fengshui-heluo.com/feng-shui-for-southern-hemisphere-24-solar-terms-%e4%ba%8c%e5%8d%81%e5%9b%9b%e7%af%80%e6%b0%a3/
8)
I do know very well that he had extensive experience with South Americans (Latin Americans) before he wrote his Bazi manual.
BTW, any comment from @Voytek our bazi-calculator.com designer, regarding the Southern school of plotting a Bazi chart?
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But the southern observer would not be experiencing the Winter Solstice, it would be experiencing the Summer Solstice. So, how do the qualities associated with Rat, for example, apply to the Southern Observer during a Rat Month?
.... Frankly speaking my opinion is in accordance to Ancient Chinese thesis and Masters of CM...!!!
Many researches must conduct in this new Age... for Southern Hemisphere.
Very significant is the research of W.K. Chu in appendix of his book "The astrology of I ching"
.....
Tientai
W.K Chu in the Astrology of I-Ching, he suggests inverting the charts. Actually, he provides a method of inverting going 6 months away from the actual natives birth date if born in the southern hemisphere. Here's an excerpt... " Everyone knows that the Southern hemisphere is the counterpart of the Northern Hemisphere, i.e when it's summer in the north its winter in the south; the circulation of the ocean and windstorm currents are reversed, indicating different influences acting on each area. While the applicable earthly hours remain the same for the same longitude, the point of reference for calculations in the Southern hemisphere must be a point diametrically opposed to the point used in the Northern hemisphere. One of the first things this does is to offset the astrological year by six months from that in the Northern hemisphere, i.e from what we call Summer Solstice to SUmmer SOlstice in the Northern hemisphere to what is known as Winter Solstice to Winter Solstice in the Southern hemisphere, roughly June 22 to June 21"
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Let's say Jia Zi month and we invert it to be Ji Wu month? 甲子 combination became more than 60?
I'm not trying to make it messy over here but let's say I'm born in Indonesia GMT +7 upon writing this message I'm experiencing a Gui Si day and Ji Wei Hour. My friend also born in Indonesia but he's in UK GMT 0. I'm talking on the phone with him and should we be experiencing the same hour Ji Wei or Bing Chen in morning 7:30am for him?
If you say that it should be Bing Chen for him because he's there, then let me ask you what hour should we experienced while on a flight to L.A? If I were to take tomorrow flight in Singapore non-stop to L.A 28/12/2018 20:45 and arrived again on 28/12/2018 19:55. What day should I be in? Jia Wu or Yi Wei?
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Let's say Jia Zi month and we invert it to be Ji Wu month? 甲子 combination became more than 60?
I'm not exactly sure because I don't use the Southern system. But I think it should be Wu Wu --> Wu Earth Stem over Wu Horse Branch.
Your example of a flight makes me thinking:
- I take a flight from Singapore (Northern hemisphere). The Month today is Jia Zi.
- The flight duration is only 1 hour 45 minutes.
- I arrive in Jakarta on the same day (Southern hemisphere)
- Does it mean that I arrive in Wu Wu month? Wow wow, time really does fly by, doesn't it? ;)
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Let's say Jia Zi month and we invert it to be Ji Wu month? 甲子 combination became more than 60?
I'm not exactly sure because I don't use the Southern system. But I think it should be Wu Wu --> Wu Earth Stem over Wu Horse Branch.
Your example of a flight makes me thinking:
- I take a flight from Singapore (Northern hemisphere). The Month today is Jia Zi.
- The flight duration is only 1 hour 45 minutes.
- I arrive in Jakarta on the same day (Southern hemisphere)
- Does it mean that I arrive in Wu Wu month? Wow wow, time really does fly by, doesn't it? ;)
Ah, yes. Even more meaningful if that same point wasn't made already at least 4-5 times between all topics in the forums. Even on the previous page by Rapanui.
http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=623.msg3622#msg3622 (http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=623.msg3622#msg3622)
I'm starting to figure out that no one is actually reading what the idea is. While keep posting the same problems and articles over and over again, even though each of them have been viewed in depth here or in the other forum.
All this is just a waste of time...
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Southern hemisphere is for healing. You go there for fun. Don't need to worry abt bazi just relax ;D
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All this is just a waste of time...
Fingers are not even in lengths. Some of us might be more difficult to be educated than others.
It's a forum and we are writing for the general public to read, nothing is wasted here.
The more we discuss about this topic, it will let the readers decide whether which beliefs system they choose fits them best.
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I'm starting to figure out that no one is actually reading what the idea is. While keep posting the same problems and articles over and over again, even though each of them have been viewed in depth here or in the other forum.
All this is just a waste of time...
i try to give a help using 太玄經 or Tai Xuan Jing making divination with Yarrow Stalks ..!!!
Query : Ιs the classical calculation sequence of the northern hemisphere (for the whole planet) the correct one ?
(http://fivearts.org/fileserver/images/2018/12/28/classical-calculation.png)
陽方躆膚赫赫，為物城郭，物咸得度。
Yang is directed to fight [care] for the skin to be brilliant [outstanding], just as [ caring ] for matters inside a city wall, all matters need a limited degree [time estimation measure].
Decision:
Yang = Borderline
Skin (Outer part)= Southern hemisphere also
Matters inside (Inner part) = Northern Hemisphere
Matters = People’s Birth place / time
Brilliant [outstanding]= correct calculation.
Limited degree = One meter of calculation.
Free judgement :
HEAD: Yang on all sides occupies the outer rim. Awesome and formidable.
it serves as the inner and outer walls for things so that all myriad things receive its protective frame.
Yang ch'i moves to take up residence at the outside of things.
Like a frame or shelter or city wall, it surrounds and protects things, strengthening their defenses so that all things feel “safe at home" under its influence.
As the Changes states. °‘When the house is set in order. the world is set on a firm course"
Until yin grows stronger, the potential for Good seems unlimited.
At the same time. the architectural metaphor suggests that yang ch'i will soon reach its natural limits. Walls and frames are useful constructions, but their firm structure works against open-ended potential.
Also, wide outer frames by definition are inherently weaker than the inner core. where strength can be concentrated.
As yang ch’i moves to a position at the outer rim. It empties out from the core of Being, leaving behind a vacuum to be filled by yin ch'i. (Compare the description of male as "outer" and female as inner).
Danger lies in neglecting what is fundamental (or inner) while attending to the secondary (or outer).
......
tientai
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Tientai post too deep for me :D
I'm more inclined to believe North and South shared the same month pillar.
My point of explanation is that gregorian calendar moved 11 days forward in 1582 Oct with 5th till 14th eliminated.
That's to accommodate the earth spinning not exactly 24 hours a day and over time built up of time forward via the Julian calendar.
http://m.wannianli.fkcha.com/year_1582_month_10.html ( You can see here that 11 days is lost but our chinese calendar continued without interruption.
I'm not a great fan of Joey Yap but 1 thing he point out is correct mentioned by Tientai.
"BaZi is based on the constellations (which are the same whether you are in the Northern or Southern hemisphere), NOT 'climate' of the country."
It's more about earth and other planet position on a given time revolving around sun. It's like western horoscope.
If one believe that the earth temperature has a real effect on bazi, then one should really thought that Water is really water and metal is a real chunk of metal.
I use to believe about the winter theory not so long ago because I was taught that way but after comparing many bazi I realized that 調侯用神 is recommending Bing fire and Gui water way higher percentage than Ji earth or Mao wood. People born in all kinds of element and months but useful gods being bias on 2 HS is not really logical to me. I don't see a big group of people doing well in specifically water/fire years or months. It's better to stick to Ten Gods. Xin Hai day born in Ren Zi month of course output too strong but due to winter must use fire. Already weak metal still use DO/7K, want him to die?
Monk mentioned about changing element to taste and immediately I saw his point. Don't need to drag me through history lesson or example. 1 simple question that don't need to be answered and it was self explanatory.
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Most modern practitioners of CM have this dilemma, but if you know the basis of BaZi and CM in general. Then the conclusion is actually quite simple.
BaZi is based on Ancient Chinese Astrological system. Most documented ancient horoscopes up until Qing dynasty incorporated Astrology as well as 八字 concepts.
From the 八字 the positions of the visible planets in the 28 Chinese Constellation and the 12 zodiac can be calculated.
Once celestial positions are calculated including rahu ketu, The rulership of the 42 神煞 is further calculated afterwards, for example;
天权，天印，天刑，天暗，天福，局主 etc. Based on your 八字 天权 could be ruled by Jupiter,Venus,Rahu,Ketu etc.
What i am trying to point to is that 八字 is based on Constellation Astrology aka Sidereal Astrology or we can call Chinese Sidereal Astrology.
Surprisingly the fixed star used to mark the position of Vedic and Chinese Astrology is Spica. The Indians use Lahiri Ayanamsa aka Chitra Paksha.
Chitra Nakshatra(Constellation) is what the Indians use to measure the sidereal position of the zodiac. Chitra Constellation is where the star of Spica resides.
Spica is also the first contellation of the Chinese Zodiac and also used to find the position of the Chinese Zodiac.
So changing the 八字 based on Hemisphere definitely not applicable because once the month changes the position of the planets changes.
Which would give incorrect readings based on incorrect planetary placements.
Just my 2 cents.
TenVirftues
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Just my 2 cents.
TenVirftues
Your 2 cents is more than 20 cents to me. A lot of deep knowledge people here... or maybe I too shallow... LOLzzz
I have no idea what's Lahiri Ayanamsa is but I get your point. Googling the word Spica now...
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Spica in google gives me all the cute Korea gals ;D ;D ;D
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My point of explanation is that gregorian calendar moved 11 days forward in 1582 Oct with 5th till 14th eliminated.
.. I hope don't confuse with contnusity of sexagenery cycle of heavenly stems and earthly Branches. . even if this elimination of 11 days happened just for correction of lunar calendar...!!
....
2 cents is ok ..😊😊
Tientai
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Hi All,
Wanted to explain more about Spica. Spica is a fixed star used by both the Chinese and The Indians to calculate back the precession of the equinoxes.
The Chinese consider Spica as 0 degrees while the Indians look for Spica and use the opposite point which is Ashwini or the First Constellation of Aries as the starting point. Both measure Spica as the determining degree.
Interestingly enough the fixed star of Spica is considered the most benefic star in Chinese, Vedic, And Western Astrology.
It symbolizes abundance and great power. Spica represents the first Chinese Constellation which is ruled by a God who can transfix serpents with his gaze.
Chitra Nakshatra is known as the bright shiny one, many modern movie stars have this star prominent in their chart.
Spica in Western Fixed Star Astrology is known as the Luckiest Star, any planet or cusps house degrees in Spica causes powerful Luck and Fame.
Justin Bieber has his Moon conjunct Spica in 0 degrees of Aries Vedic Astrology.
Spica is called the one that stands out and it sure stands out in many ways.
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Very interesting, TenVirtues... thank you! :)
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Indonesia is consider in the Southern Hemisphere and have over 200 million population. So far how is Jlim and other bazi master reading on Indonesian?
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My own experience in Reply #20 (http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=623.msg3706#msg3706)
TenVirtues, deep knowledge on planets and constellations! :)
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Hi All Happy New Years,
Thank you Jlim need to learn more Iching SixLine from you. That is another great part of BaZi.
Appreciate you providing a platform free of trolls and hypocrites.
All the best to all,
TenVirtues
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There was a whole thing with a change in the calendar where they had problems with a specific Emperor and some scientists(well, monks really, but in that case we can say it was scientists) from the western world few centuries ago. The question came up to who can calculate the solstice more accurately and they did better... I don't remember the whole story, shouldn't be difficult to find. But the day is continues, that is shared with the moon calendar as well, but the months are different.
Considering in his QMDj/JMDJ book Jack Chiu says similar change was made in Tang Dynasty I guess that was the timeframe.
After the calendar change now they reflect the movement of the Sun in the Solar Calendar, I have searched a lot never found out how it was calculated before.
It is one of the reasons people say Chai Bu count is more accurate, as the whole base is different now when it comes to the months. But more on that in that post in that topic.
So in that sense, while the day 60 jia/zi is a stream that goes back very very far, the months in the way we view them today aren't very old. Tang Dynasty was 618–907(still old of course, but in comparison with the day - very recent).
Anyway, that same reasoning we can use for using Chinese time everywhere. If we use local time(solar or not), it suggest we are making changes in very old and very well established system, no matter if it is about the months or not. :)
Thumbs Up. . Well Said
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All this is just a waste of time...
Fingers are not even in lengths. Some of us might be more difficult to be educated than others.
It's a forum and we are writing for the general public to read, nothing is wasted here.
The more we discuss about this topic, it will let the readers decide whether which beliefs system they choose fits them best.
Yea, you are right, was just a bad day I guess, but my problem was that no one seems to be talking about the actual problem we have. Heluos article is going in depth how the orbit of the Sun is related to the 12 seasonal hexagrams... But that is so obvious I didn't even want to comment on it, that are SEASONAL hexagrams, they are connected to the season, not to the Suns longitude.
Anyway, my point is, if no one wants to comment on that part, its better to move on. Just posting unrelated stuff time and time again make it difficult to go in the topic. Then again if no one cares about that(and that is perfectly fine) then just let it go. At this point I just don't know what more to say, all the reasons I think it should be inverted are still unanswered.
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Dear @Gmuli .. hi
Am glad to discuss with you on this subject ...
Just posting unrelated stuff time and time again make it difficult to go in the topic. Then again if no one cares about that(and that is perfectly fine) then just let it go. At this point I just don't know what more to say, all the reasons I think it should be inverted are still unanswered.
Perhaps you mean as "unrelated" .. my effort to answer to this Dilemma by making divination with Tai Xuan Jing art of casting ..
http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=623.msg3758#msg3758
We are here on this forum to sharpen our understanding on divination arts ..
The reason on using this kind of tools (Tai xuan, Liuyao, ling c'hi ching, Bazi. .etc ) is obviously don't trust our logic..
Many answers are taken with real inspiration .. !!. (personally I say it happens on tossing coins or yarrow stalk )..
Is different with positive Aristotelian western logic...
Chinese are different on this because use as their basis concepts of yin yang , 5 elements and so many philosophical meanings that use them to judge anything.
Wanting to add on this my experience when I was studying in a Chinese hospital... Traditional Chinese Medicine.
I had the luck to have as a teacher a Veteran old lady Doctor ... she made every day 70 or more successful therapies every day .. when asked her how this happened .. she always said : I don't know. . Just follow the changes that Qi flows .. !!! (70 therapies are for my western mind 70 inspirations)..
That is the difference with western logic .. !!
.. surely I don't want to say what is better .. this is up to anyone to answer ... !!
I agree we must continue to talk about on this topic ...
Thanks you came back ☺☺☺
Tientai
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Dear @Gmuli .. hi
Am glad to discuss with you on this subject ...
Just posting unrelated stuff time and time again make it difficult to go in the topic. Then again if no one cares about that(and that is perfectly fine) then just let it go. At this point I just don't know what more to say, all the reasons I think it should be inverted are still unanswered.
Perhaps you mean as "unrelated" .. my effort to answer to this Dilemma by making divination with Tai Xuan Jing art of casting ..
http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=623.msg3758#msg3758
We are here on this forum to sharpen our understanding on divination arts ..
The reason on using this kind of tools (Tai xuan, Liuyao, ling c'hi ching, Bazi. .etc ) is obviously don't trust our logic..
Many answers are taken with real inspiration .. !!. (personally I say it happens on tossing coins or yarrow stalk )..
Is different with positive Aristotelian western logic...
Chinese are different on this because use as their basis concepts of yin yang , 5 elements and so many philosophical meanings that use them to judge anything.
Wanting to add on this my experience when I was studying in a Chinese hospital... Traditional Chinese Medicine.
I had the luck to have as a teacher a Veteran old lady Doctor ... she made every day 70 or more successful therapies every day .. when asked her how this happened .. she always said : I don't know. . Just follow the changes that Qi flows .. !!! (70 therapies are for my western mind 70 inspirations)..
That is the difference with western logic .. !!
.. surely I don't want to say what is better .. this is up to anyone to answer ... !!
I agree we must continue to talk about on this topic ...
Thanks you came back ☺☺☺
Tientai
Hi. : )
Thank you.
Yea, I think I'm trying too. i started working with QMDJ lately and in there it seems very, very clear the chart to look at is without time adjustment. However, that makes it even more unclear, why some systems seem to be so clearly using it while others doesn't seem to...
I do agree, western logic just isn't the tool here, but I still seem to be missing what to replace it.
Wanting to add on this my experience when I was studying in a Chinese hospital... Traditional Chinese Medicine.
I had the luck to have as a teacher a Veteran old lady Doctor ... she made every day 70 or more successful therapies every day .. when asked her how this happened .. she always said : I don't know. . Just follow the changes that Qi flows .. !!! (70 therapies are for my western mind 70 inspirations)..
That is the difference with western logic .. !!
.. surely I don't want to say what is better .. this is up to anyone to answer ... !!
I agree we must continue to talk about on this topic ...
This is very interesting and yea, I think it may have an answer in there. Maybe if we don't question just use whatever seems to work best, its the nicest approach.
The example - I would read that as we need to assign each place its order. So we again get to the same problem that reading seems to fit to what we approach it with.
In western schools Tarot is easier, it just shows the images in our fields. That images if strong enough will manifest. But there isn't connection to any calendar, when I thought about that I always assume that is why eastern systems can be so accurate with time, coz they have connection to the calendar.
Overall, its messy and I think I'm missing something, hopefully will clear out with time.
I didn't mean specifically anyone with the "unrelated stuff", I just meant that I can't find answer to what I was actually asking, so far.
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By the way ..
Tai Xuan Jing and Ling ChI Jing ... not using any calendar ..!!!
Agree as Tarot in Westerners ...
Only Tai Xuan Jing has its own calendar but don't influence the situation of casting..
..
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In western schools Tarot is easier, it just shows the images in our fields. That images if strong enough will manifest. But there isn't connection to any calendar, when I thought about that I always assume that is why eastern systems can be so accurate with time, coz they have connection to the calendar.
In Liu Yao (Six Lines) or other Chinese divinations, images are also shown clearly. This is something that you already knew, Gmuli. Unfortunately, I don't find much explanation of images in the classical Liu Yao literature. I'm fortunate enough to have learnt how to derive images from a Taiwanese master. This is done through the same Liu Yao hexagram, but with much better use of Ten Gods, Month & Day Branches and Six Animals.
Yo're right that the calendric system in Chinese is what makes its divinatory system more powerful than Tarot. You can predict not only what and how things happen, but also when things will and will not happen.
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In western schools Tarot is easier, it just shows the images in our fields. That images if strong enough will manifest. But there isn't connection to any calendar, when I thought about that I always assume that is why eastern systems can be so accurate with time, coz they have connection to the calendar.
In Liu Yao (Six Lines) or other Chinese divinations, images are also shown clearly. This is something that you already knew, Gmuli. Unfortunately, I don't find much explanation of images in the classical Liu Yao literature. I'm fortunate enough to have learnt how to derive images from a Taiwanese master. This is done through the same Liu Yao hexagram, but with much better use of Ten Gods, Month & Day Branches and Six Animals.
Yo're right that the calendric system in Chinese is what makes its divinatory system more powerful than Tarot. You can predict not only what and how things happen, but also when things will and will not happen.
Lets go a little deeper. I agree, in my view its all about Images.
The idea in the systems working with the lightbody/merkaba is that our aura/fields/sacred geometry creates the events in our lives.
While Tarot just picks up the strongest Images from the aura and counts on our spread to fall in correct positions BaZi seems to work with layers and depths.
The Year seems to be the most outer part of our aura, what the outside world(Spirit) will interact with first as we are born. Also the reason it covers early years(as the Spirit will come from outside In as it always does), and also why it covers things related to distance and reaching out. Its just physically more far away back from our third eye(in the middle of the head if we count the pineal gland as it) place for the Images to show.
Month is closer, Day is right beside us and hour is beyond that level, at the position of what they call 2th He(ה) in Kabbalah(the fruit that will manifest in another world/level).
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSFQcJtf/pillars1.png)
In that sense BaZi pillars just cover the depth of the aura where the Images show up and again the strength of each one as they are enforced by interactions connected to cycles in the geometry in and out.
While for western practitioners may take many years to be able to figure out the time aspect just based on the depth, in BaZi it comes with the system and the images already within.
ZWDS instead of depth tries to map out the whole field bringing out important points that are shinning or not so much in a same layer, then adds more layers with the switching of Palaces.
Also works.
At the end its all about images(well, more or less).
So in that sense it seems Five Arts are more suited to work with time, sure.
While Tarot just picks up the strongest of them, but Tarot originally was used for traveling out of the body. Cards are portals to the paths of the Tree, in the same sense as we can change images with them and that will change events. In that way each system has its place and use.
One of the reason I like the blindstyle lately. While the heavy use of Images may have derived for a lot different reasons(for example that people there needed to replace what other practitioners would be able to see), they stumble upon something very, very important and that is that these systems are innately made to work with Images, more often then not.
When it comes to Liu Yao things become complicated...
It has to still be a flow in the sacred geometry, as all eventually comes to that, but to figure out how it works iwll take a deeper knowledge of the geometry and how it works.
People, that are just starting to work with Sacret Geometry will usually know only one shape of the electromagnetic fields in the aura, and that would usually be the star tetrahedron.
(http://www.crystalinks.com/merkaba2.gif)
(https://www.laetusinpraesens.org/docs10s/images/merkaba_files/tetra_tetra_red.png)
(images from google images and random sites)
Now, what is sometimes given is the idea that each of the Apexs of it holds 1 personality/ Trigram.
3 Daughers and Mother for the Earth tetrahedron and 3 sons and Father for the Sun tetrahedron.
When our life here is done and we are ready to come back again, the tetrahedron will turn and another personality will enter the next life. They change and rotate until we manage to merge them all and go on the steps beyond that...
In that sense, its easy to figure out parts of how Yi Jing works, its just a flow in the geometry creating pulsation.
The problem comes when we add the whole fields because everything becomes a lot more complicated.
But lets stop here as I realize its probably out of topic already. : )
In short - I very much agree it all revolves around Images as the flows in the geometry creates them , empowers them and pulls from the world around us the events connected to them(including time).
But as far as more powerful goes... Sure, for predicting time Five Arts seem more suited, for more powerful - I never said that. : )
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Hi All,
Big Dipper Clock was the CM Ancestor...
https://astro.unl.edu/classaction/animations/ancientastro/dipperclock.html
:)
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I have no idea if I should answer at this point...We keep up piling stuff that has nothing to do with what the problem is...
Earth goes through something called precession of the equinoxes, roughtly 24,000 years. That is a tilt in the Axis, that is why we have season. Its also the reason all the sky when we look at it today will revolve around a different star then it did two thousand years ago.
Earth also goes through something called Milankovitch cycles that changes the way Earth rotates around the Sun(every 500 years for the first one) then goes back, again changing the way Earth will relate to all the planets in the Solar System.
That suggests that all this relations mentioned here will be different from one thousand years ago.Nothing of these will point in exactly the same place and as time goes on it will rotate in a full circle as the Earths Axis will keep shifting the position it revolves around.
That is why when we talk about the hemisphere the only factor we look at is the Suns longitude. The other stuff, while interesting is to unstable and changes in a way that isn't included in the Five Arts as far as Im aware(although it is included in western astrology as we know about it for a while).
Looking at history its easy to see people linking it to different planets, constellations and other stuff they could see. It did not originate from that, as that changes in a way they did not include and that will look different today as it will look different in one more thousand years again(in 24 thousand years more or less will look the same then go out of sync again).
Considering that all this again has nothing to do with what was mention before. If someone wants to comment on the Solar Terms and the Seasons(based on Suns longitude) I'm more then open. Other things that will never hold for one thousand years I don't see a point to comment on as they aren't what we base calculation for Solar Terms on its relation, some people during history thought were important and were actually not, as because of the movement of the Earth all that would(and already has) change.
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@Gmuli
You are concentrating on the wrong thing.
The metaphysical season has nothing to do with the actual seasons, other than it was the names first used to describe seasons back in the Northern Hemisphere, where all this originated from. In short, you are getting hung up over a name that could have been anything else had a country in the Southern Hemisphere discovered all this first and is now the dominant ideology around this art.
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@Gmuli
You are concentrating on the wrong thing.
The metaphysical season has nothing to do with the actual seasons, other than it was the names first used to describe seasons back in the Northern Hemisphere, where all this originated from. In short, you are getting hung up over a name that could have been anything else had a country in the Southern Hemisphere discovered all this first and is now the dominant ideology around this art.
Well... Maybe, but it isn't the name.
Its the way we calculate it.
Zi Rat Branch. Made of 2 Solar Terms:
21.大雪
22.冬至
Now, Solar Term 22 stars at exactly 270 degrees of Suns elliptical longitude.
That is Winter Solstice.
Its not close to it, the Solstice itself is the start of the Solar Term.
So in this way we have the shortest day of the year(the minimum of the light) position in the Zi branch. Seems to fit to the water element.
That is true for all of them.
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Hi Gmuli,
I think the best thing in these cases is to conduct an empiric study and see what it works in the reality. Please keep us up to date!
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Well... Maybe, but it isn't the name.
Looking back over the posts you made, it appeared to be the case, but I am not you, so I could easily have been mistaken. So let us continue instead. :)
Its the way we calculate it.
^
This us here is what you really should have said early on; This was not the case unfortunately if you examine your posts in this thread again, you may have got side tracked by other issues you had. That is why you have not been getting the answers to your troubles, as you appeared to be having issues on a variety of fronts and unable to bring them together. But others who have reached over that threshold already are trying to answer your other problem instead, but because it wasn't your starting issue where you are having issues on, you were having trouble seeing what and why we are answering something you didn't appear to ask yourself.
No matter, everyone gets that. The important thing is that you can get over it.
Zi Rat Branch. Made of 2 Solar Terms:
21.大雪
22.冬至
Now, Solar Term 22 stars at exactly 270 degrees of Suns elliptical longitude.
That is Winter Solstice.
Its not close to it, the Solstice itself is the start of the Solar Term.
[snip!]
That is true for all of them.
So if I am reading your post right, your real issue is having pinpoint timing calculation that is accurate for all time.
To which I can only answer, you are correct that this will inevitably require recalculation for certain parts used in Five Arts metaphysics. But I will be the first to answer that I do not know the answer to:
1. The calculation required.
2. Or even if the calculation proposed will be the right one.
3. That the Five Elements would even be altered. Because it's metaphysics after all. Not physics.
So in this way we have the shortest day of the year(the minimum of the light) position in the Zi branch. Seems to fit to the water element.
The bolded and italic part is irrefutable. There is no question about this part. And why you have a solid argument on your hands for your query about the calculation shifting.
But the bolded and underlined part, it only a supposition at best for what any modern person can hold on to. As there is no record of any originator of the Five Elements or Five Arts that would have detailedly described why this relation was put together. Was it because of the mythical deities and the imagery related to them? Was it the Yin/Yang theory and expansion of it and subsequent observation of the Sun and Stars? Or was it simply because they observed other phenomena from the skies over the years and as their knowledge and recollections grew, they were able to see that the Five Element aspect of Water was greatest during the period that is now known as the rat? And from then, applied the two together? In short, two separate systems that when overlaid over each other, produced what we have now? Who can say with absolute certainty?
+1 for pointing out the calculation flaw. But I would still remind you (and anyone else interested in Five Arts), that as it is metaphysics (non hard science) and not physics (hard science), certain things aren't required to have an absolute other than being near enough to it for it to work.
I hope this has helped, but if it hasn't please do continue posting. But please do make sure you are asking what really concerns you or what concerns you have, otherwise all you will do is frustrate yourself and others replies with answers don't seem to be read or don't seem to be replying to the question you have.
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certain things aren't required to have an absolute other than being near enough to it for it to work
I guess.
But it fits so perfectly... Solstices and Equinoxes in the middle of peach blossom branches, Mao when the Day is equal to the Night but starting to increase, You when its the opposite...
Wu on the longest day, while Zi on the shortest one...
Its just really nicely working together and following the cycle of increase and decrease of light in the day during the year...
May be a coincidence or maybe something else is at play here, but I never liked the idea of coincidence as an explanation for anything.
Also lets not forget there are practitioners there that do invert branches.
PdStelle : Well, we tried but how much can we say for a branch inversion in people we never met?Problem with marriage, fine, but imagine the person had a very stable long term relationship just did managed to hide it from the media. Its branches, they shouldn't be that easily seen from media articles and I don't know currently anyone living in the other hemisphere.
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certain things aren't required to have an absolute other than being near enough to it for it to work
I guess.
But it fits so perfectly... Solstices and Equinoxes in the middle of peach blossom branches, Mao when the Day is equal to the Night but starting to increase, You when its the opposite...
Wu on the longest day, while Zi on the shortest one...
Its just really nicely working together and following the cycle of increase and decrease of light in the day during the year...
May be a coincidence or maybe something else is at play here, but I never liked the idea of coincidence as an explanation for anything.
The more you try to pin something down in metaphysics, the more it will slip away from you. That is the way of Yin and Yang. To which the Five Elements are born. Is that coincidence? Or an actual law? Or are they really just the same thing?
In this case, does it truly matter either way? It simply still is what it would be, is it not?
Also lets not forget there are practitioners there that do invert branches.
I will simply add that I do not invert. But what more is there to take from that? It might be they are wrong. It might be I am not skilled enough. What you are trying to do, is noble. Working it out down to the lowest point. But in metaphysics, the lowest point is also the highest point, somewhere you can never get to. Don't fall into the trap that befalls so many others. Five Arts and Five Elements, is not physics. It can be related to it. And that is really all you should be concerned with if you wish to progress into the advanced stages. ;)
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I have no idea if I should answer at this point...We keep up piling stuff that has nothing to do with what the problem is...
Earth goes through something called precession of the equinoxes, roughtly 24,000 years. That is a tilt in the Axis, that is why we have season. Its also the reason all the sky when we look at it today will revolve around a different star then it did two thousand years ago.
Earth also goes through something called Milankovitch cycles that changes the way Earth rotates around the Sun(every 500 years for the first one) then goes back, again changing the way Earth will relate to all the planets in the Solar System.
That suggests that all this relations mentioned here will be different from one thousand years ago.Nothing of these will point in exactly the same place and as time goes on it will rotate in a full circle as the Earths Axis will keep shifting the position it revolves around.
That is why when we talk about the hemisphere the only factor we look at is the Suns longitude. The other stuff, while interesting is to unstable and changes in a way that isn't included in the Five Arts as far as Im aware(although it is included in western astrology as we know about it for a while).
Looking at history its easy to see people linking it to different planets, constellations and other stuff they could see. It did not originate from that, as that changes in a way they did not include and that will look different today as it will look different in one more thousand years again(in 24 thousand years more or less will look the same then go out of sync again).
Considering that all this again has nothing to do with what was mention before. If someone wants to comment on the Solar Terms and the Seasons(based on Suns longitude) I'm more then open. Other things that will never hold for one thousand years I don't see a point to comment on as they aren't what we base calculation for Solar Terms on its relation, some people during history thought were important and were actually not, as because of the movement of the Earth all that would(and already has) change.
Hi Gmuli,
I think you confusing Western Astrology, with Eastern Vedic/Chinese Astrology. Both Vedic and Chinese Astrology use fixed star to determine the start and stop of
the zodiac and constellations. So the procession of the equinoxes do not affect or change their viewpoint. Spica is always used as 0 degrees of the 1st Chinese Constellation, While the Indians use 180 degrees from Spica as 0 Degrees of Aries.
This will never change no matter the procession of equinoxes, it will always be calculated back to match Spica as 0 Degrees or 180 degrees.
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I have no idea if I should answer at this point...We keep up piling stuff that has nothing to do with what the problem is...
Earth goes through something called precession of the equinoxes, roughtly 24,000 years. That is a tilt in the Axis, that is why we have season. Its also the reason all the sky when we look at it today will revolve around a different star then it did two thousand years ago.
Earth also goes through something called Milankovitch cycles that changes the way Earth rotates around the Sun(every 500 years for the first one) then goes back, again changing the way Earth will relate to all the planets in the Solar System.
That suggests that all this relations mentioned here will be different from one thousand years ago.Nothing of these will point in exactly the same place and as time goes on it will rotate in a full circle as the Earths Axis will keep shifting the position it revolves around.
That is why when we talk about the hemisphere the only factor we look at is the Suns longitude. The other stuff, while interesting is to unstable and changes in a way that isn't included in the Five Arts as far as Im aware(although it is included in western astrology as we know about it for a while).
Looking at history its easy to see people linking it to different planets, constellations and other stuff they could see. It did not originate from that, as that changes in a way they did not include and that will look different today as it will look different in one more thousand years again(in 24 thousand years more or less will look the same then go out of sync again).
Considering that all this again has nothing to do with what was mention before. If someone wants to comment on the Solar Terms and the Seasons(based on Suns longitude) I'm more then open. Other things that will never hold for one thousand years I don't see a point to comment on as they aren't what we base calculation for Solar Terms on its relation, some people during history thought were important and were actually not, as because of the movement of the Earth all that would(and already has) change.
Hi Gmuli,
I think you confusing Western Astrology, with Eastern Vedic/Chinese Astrology. Both Vedic and Chinese Astrology use fixed star to determine the start and stop of
the zodiac and constellations. So the procession of the equinoxes do not affect or change their viewpoint. Spica is always used as 0 degrees of the 1st Chinese Constellation, While the Indians use 180 degrees from Spica as 0 Degrees of Aries.
This will never change no matter the procession of equinoxes, it will always be calculated back to match Spica as 0 Degrees or 180 degrees.
Hi.
Check the HK observatory, only factor we use to calculate the starting of the Solar Terms is the Suns apparent longitude(more simple the place of the Sun during the year when viewed from Earth). And Suns longitude is what we use to tell the Solstices/Equinoxes.
https://www.hko.gov.hk/gts/astron2018/2018SolarTerms24.pdf (https://www.hko.gov.hk/gts/astron2018/2018SolarTerms24.pdf)
No star play a role in the calculation, and logically they can't, as if we keep Sun/Earth relation a constant all else will change with time.
Tientai: I loved that comics some years ago. Some really wise stuff from there. : )
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Hi Gmuli,
Calculating the Solar Term is different from saying the Chinese Astrology is based on the Solar Term.
In terms of Precession of the Equinoxes the Chinese and Indians don't calculate that because we use Fixed Stars to measure the Zodiac.
We always adjust back to the original position of the stars. That is why Indians go back 24 degrees from Western Astrological Charts.
So that the Zodiac aligns with the Stars not with the Earth. This is called Sidereal astrology or fixed star Astrology.
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Calculating the Solar Term is different from saying the Chinese Astrology is based on the Solar Term.
True. In my point of view the whole topic is only about the Month Branch(sometimes including the stem) and that is based on the Solar Terms in the Solar Calendar.
As each branch is made of 2 Solar Terms, so 30 degrees of the Suns movement.
And as Month Branch is calculated based on the Solar Terms the stars does not play a role in this specific problem(Hemispheres).
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Hi Gmuli,
Ah but it does have a lot to do with the Stars and Astrology especially in the Month branch.
From the Month branch or the 月令。 We can see the position of the Sun in its determining constellations.
For example in 子Month The Sun will traverse through the 6th 7th 8th and 9th Chinese Lunar Constellations.
The 6th Lunar constellation overlaps with 亥 month, while the 9th constellation overlaps with 丑 month.
Depending on Which day you were born the Sun would be in one of these constellations, but also understand that the Zodiac sign of 子 itself,
is represented by the whole of 7th and 8th Chinese constellation. Especially the 8th constellation Dipper which is the 斗star which is called 星官(The Governor of The Stars）
Which is why 子 is the head of the Chinese Zodiac.
Not the mention that the combination of the Year Branch and Monthly Branch also gives the position of Saturn and Jupiter in relation to the 28 Chinese Constellation.
While the combination of the Year Month and Day gives position of the faster moving planets Mars,Mercury,Venus to their corresponding 28 Constellation placement.
I honestly don't blame you for not knowing this stuff, because modern day Chinese is more Metaphysics then it is Astrological.
Yet the Metaphysical part is based on Astrological Principles that are no longer mentioned this most be emphasized.
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But we get again to that, all this relations will change because of the precession(Earths axis tilt). : )
I have checked everything you can think of... From orbits of the other planets to Sun spots activity cycle and all else we can think of.
There is nothing that stays the same for 4 thousand years though the precession(nothing stays even for 2 and when it comes to the orbits of the other planets it usually falls apart in a few centuries as the orbits are never as exact as people seem to think).
If you really think one of them will stay we can look at one of them in details.
Just choose one. : )
28 constellation of course also moves as the point the night sky revolves around change every 2 thousand years. So dividing the sky in any way will give different result as the Earth axis points to different star with time. One of the reasons some Feng Shui masters avoid using techniques connected to them, as its just not reliable in the way they look at it(I view it differently, but that is long to go into).
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No, i just think you keep on mistaking the difference between Tropical Astrology and Sidereal Astrology.
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Well... All this was suppose to be for the Month Branch and does it need inverting...
But its all good, lets then look at the Year Pillar.
I get the idea of fixed stars, but we need much, much more to actually connect it to the year pillar.
So lets look at the Jupiter Saturn relations to the constellations.
As without this all is just empty words, lets try to see how it actually work.
The idea seems to be Jupiter and Saturn will have same relation to the constellation they had 4 thousand years ago and that relation creates the Year Pillar.
For all this to work that relation have to be exactly 60 years(or 10/12 years) as of course it will drift off if its even a day more or less.
Nothing in the relation of Jupiter or Saturn orbits is exactly 10 or 12 years as far as I'm aware, neither is their relation to a specific constellation fixed at exactly 10 or 12 years(or even 60 years) when we view it from Earth.
Fixed stars or not, all this could work only if Saturn or Jupiter had some relation with a constellation that was exactly 12 and 10 years. But it has to be exactly, one day difference and in 3 centuries it will drift off by a day already...
As how their relation to each other and the constellation are used is unclear will try to guess.
Some of the relation like the synodic periods of revolution for Jupiter and Saturn seems close at first and some authors(Lim for example) did think they are the base of it... But they are not, lets look at that -
Jupiter sidereal period - 11.9 years,
Saturn sidereal period - 29.5 years
It seems so close, but think about it, just in a century you will already have 1 year difference for Jupiter and in 60 years will have 1 year difference for Saturn.
Others were providing ideas that were even more far off...
I don't see the point of guessing the one you have accepted as accurate and commenting on all of them, so if you provide the calculations you are using we can look into it.
So its not that I don't get the idea of fixed star. Its just that the idea alone doesn't mean much. We are talking about relation of Jupiter and Saturn to the constelation that creates the Year Pillar. If we exclude the Earth from it because of the precession and look only in the relation of that 2 planets to the stars we need something that is exactly 10 years and 12 years without a day difference. And providing that will be challenging, but I'm more then happy to see if you can. : )
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I'm not trying to be mean. I get that to use the system practically all this may not be needed. However for me to use better these systems these relations and meaning behind it all often helps. In this specific case I would be more then happy if we find out a valid base for the Year Pillar. Been looking in that for a long time.
But to do it we have to go down to the actual orbits, years and relations. Too deep or not, its the only way to actually see how it works. Is that important... It is for me.
It is not the only important thing. I'm more then happy to use QMDJ without any adjustments and inversation or any idea why it works for most of it. But I also know when I learn it well enough its more then likely to figure out that as well.
I get that for many it may be going too deep. But I am curios creature and I do need that to work more fully with the systems. It won't stop me to use them in the way that seems to work best, understanding why or not, but as soon as there is a chance I will try to understand why and how. Always.
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Hi @Gmuli,
I thought i was expalining why the Month branch can not be inverted all this time! Lol. You can't just focus on one aspect of the BaZi chart and say
lets just Focus on the Month branch because we are talking about inversion. When you switch the Month branch you basically switch the rest of the BaZi chart.
Anyways i just came on the share my knowledge. If you do not like or accept what i say that is ok with me. I do not expect everyone to accept what i say.
I am definitely not about to come on here and give you a Astrology Class. That is something you should do yourself called Self-Study.
Saturn Cycles are based on 甲子旬, and it's relation with the Month branch. Basically 60x12= 720 possible combinations.
Based on these 720 possible combinations will show the position of Jupiter and Saturn. The position of Jupiter or more exactly Shadow Jupiter Aka Grand Duke.
Is seen from the Year position, Grand Duke is about 24 degrees behind real position of Jupiter which is the same as sidereal Jupiter.
Basically the Grand Duke is the Sidereal position of Jupiter, as in Matching Jupiter to the corresponding Constellation(Zodiac) and not it's relevance to Earth.
I am not going to give the whole formula on here because it will take too much time. This information i am giving really isn't hidden it's probably just that you
have not really studied "Chinese Astrology". You have been studying Chinese Metaphysics. There is a clear difference.
If you want to know these formulas just pick up Ho Peng Yoke, and you can get half the Formulas you are asking for.
The concepts i am explaining really are the most basic Concepts in Chinese Astrology, If you don't even understand or grasp these concepts no use going
more advanced.
It would be like trying to teach someone how to run before they know how to walk.
And don't worry you are not being mean at all, your just ill informed i am not offended at all.
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Basically the Grand Duke is the Sidereal position of Jupiter, as in Matching Jupiter to the corresponding Constellation(Zodiac) and not it's relevance to Earth.
Some of the relation like the synodic periods of revolution for Jupiter and Saturn seems close at first and some authors(Lim for example) did think they are the base of it... But they are not, lets look at that -
Jupiter sidereal period - 11.9 years,
Saturn sidereal period - 29.5 years
It seems so close, but think about it, just in a century you will already have 1 year difference for Jupiter and in 60 years will have 1 year difference for Saturn.
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About the other stuff... I get that its tempting to try to explain in every post how ill informed I am. That can help someone feel nice, but I would ask, read what I have wrote before that?
As otherwise the topic can't really flow well. : )
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Hi All,
Thank you The Monk and TenVirtues for useful clarifications!...
But I would still remind you (and anyone else interested in Five Arts), that as it is metaphysics (non hard science) and not physics (hard science), certain things aren't required to have an absolute other than being near enough to it for it to work.
It seems than Physics and Metaphysics are complementary but not exactly the same..
There is also some process in Western astrology like mid point, equal part, etc..
Chinese Astrology can be linked directly with Physics and Astronomy..
Chinese Metaphysics seem to have transformed Physics by Images symbols, etc... like.. Yin Yang, Four Images etc..
For information: The Mathematics of the Chinese Calendar Helmer Aslaksen Department of Mathematics National University of Singapore (pdf)
Best Regards
:)
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Basically the Grand Duke is the Sidereal position of Jupiter, as in Matching Jupiter to the corresponding Constellation(Zodiac) and not it's relevance to Earth.
Some of the relation like the synodic periods of revolution for Jupiter and Saturn seems close at first and some authors(Lim for example) did think they are the base of it... But they are not, lets look at that -
Jupiter sidereal period - 11.9 years,
Saturn sidereal period - 29.5 years
It seems so close, but think about it, just in a century you will already have 1 year difference for Jupiter and in 60 years will have 1 year difference for Saturn.
Hi,
At this point we are just going in circles. I keep trying to tell you that these cycles are
not Tropical based. Yet you keep falling back on the precession of the equinoxes.
When what i have been trying to explain all along is that Sidereal Astrology don't take into consideration of the precession of the equinoxes. If you don't know the difference by now the difference between Tropical Astrology and Sidereal Astrology no point in continuing a debate.
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I do know the difference. One used fixed stars and doesn't count the relation to the Earth.
As I explained and posted that isn't enough by itself. Even if you use fixed stars the numbers still doesn't add up.
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Then again if you knew what sidereal period means you would understand what I was posting was already from the Sidereal Astrology point of view, as you seem to want.
So you are a fan of sidereal astrology but you didn't understood the periods given was already of the orbit by itself and not its relation to Earth?
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What does the rotational period of these two planets have to do with predicting it's position using the Year and Month?
To know the position of Saturn and Jupiter that's honestly all you need, whether it's Vedic/Western or Chinese Astrology.
Saturn takes 2.5 years to move from a Sign and Jupiter takes 12 months. That is why the Element Yearly Stem changes every 2 years while the
Earthly Branch changes every 1 year. Then we also take into consideration 12 Qi Phase of the Elements and we come to around 2.5 years per element.
So from the Month Year we definitely can track the position of Saturn and Jupiter. What does there revolotion periods have to do with finding their position from
the Year and Month?
Here you mention the tilt of Earth precession of equinoxes thats where we differ because you saying that the Year and Month given now is wrong.
Therefore the position of Saturn and Jupiter is already wrong from because of the precession the Earth no longer is aligning with the Constellation 2000 years ago.
Like i mention before just like the Indians the Chinese do not take the precession into consideration and use Spica instead as 0 degrees. So no matter 2000 years ago
or 4000 years from now, Spica is always 0 degrees no matter how much the Earth has tilted.
I don't think i can explain it more simple than that.
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Saturn takes 2.5 years to move from a Sign and Jupiter takes 12 months.
But I posted... Ahh, anyway, lets just agree to disagree. : )
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Hi All,
You may find some interesting informations...
Books of Fate and Popular Culture in Early China: The Daybook Manuscripts of the warring states, Qin and Han
https://books.google.fr/books?id=eoJ1DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA490&dq=books+of+fate+and+popular+culture+in+early+china&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiLl6Ce1YzgAhVozoUKHQ7oC9IQ6AEILTAA#v=onepage&q=books%20of%20fate%20and%20popular%20culture%20in%20early%20china&f=false
Best Regards
:)
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Very well said and explained by Wencang thank you Dao for sharing, couldn't of said it any better myself.
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Very well said and explained by Wencang thank you Dao for sharing, couldn't of said it any better myself.
Yes TenVirtues! these pages with explanations by Wencang are precious...
All the best
8)
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Thank you Dao. It is interesting topic. Again when we do the math it doesn't make sense, though. Will give a simple example.
When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation the baZi Would be:
Jia Jia Jia Jia
Zi Zi Zi Zi
Again as so much of these relation its really poetic and it seems so logical if we don't go in depth.
However it doesn't take much knowledge about the Solar Calendar to figure out that if the year is Jia/Zi the month branch Zi will always come with Bing stem...
So Jia/Zi year and Jia/Zi month can never happen in the way the calendar is calculated...
Basically the stems of Year and Day are more free to move around, while Hour is fixed to the Day Pillar, Month is Fixed to the Year pillar. : )
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Hi Gmuli,
Yes poetic... A small obvious mistake placed in a text written by a Scholar or a Master can be a sign of humility, or a simple typo, or a call for concentration for the student ...
;)
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When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation the baZi Would be:
Jia Jia Jia Jia
Zi Zi Zi Zi
So Jia/Zi year and Jia/Zi month can never happen in the way the calendar is calculated...
If the year begins in Zi month, this chart is possible. 8)
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@Rapanui hi ..
There are many calendars in Chinese ancient culture ...
Possibly this can be true if year starts on Daxue (abundant snow) just about 7 December....as first month Zi
....
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When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation the baZi Would be:
Jia Jia Jia Jia
Zi Zi Zi Zi
So Jia/Zi year and Jia/Zi month can never happen in the way the calendar is calculated...
If the year begins in Zi month, this chart is possible. 8)
True, true...
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When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation the baZi Would be:
Jia Jia Jia Jia
Zi Zi Zi Zi
If the year begins in Zi month, this chart is possible. 8)
Hi All,
Rapanui !!! Thank you...
"The branch names are not usual month names; the main use of the branches for months is astrological. However, the names are sometimes used to indicate historically which (lunar) month was the first month of the year in ancient times. For example, since the Han dynasty, the first month has been jiànyínyuè, but earlier the first month was jiànzǐyuè (during the Zhou dynasty) or jiànchǒuyuè (traditionally during the Shang dynasty) as well."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagenary_cycle
:)
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When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation the baZi Would be:
Jia Jia Jia Jia
Zi Zi Zi Zi
If the year begins in Zi month, this chart is possible. 8)
Hi All,
Rapanui !!! Thank you...
"The branch names are not usual month names; the main use of the branches for months is astrological. However, the names are sometimes used to indicate historically which (lunar) month was the first month of the year in ancient times. For example, since the Han dynasty, the first month has been jiànyínyuè, but earlier the first month was jiànzǐyuè (during the Zhou dynasty) or jiànchǒuyuè (traditionally during the Shang dynasty) as well."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagenary_cycle
:)
We have our date then!
If we take that the next year will start from Zi month, that would mean we look at Gui/Hai month with the modern calendar(Solar).
And our date is 17 December 1923 at 00:00 hour.
BaZi Is:
Jia Jia Jia Gui
Zi Zi Zi Hai
Does it fit...
Well, next step is we need the actual relation to fit.
There is A LOT of stuff going on in real life, so will have to check later. If someone wants to check meanwhile will be really helpful.
Again the rule we need is:
When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation.
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Hi All, continue the puzzle..
(...)"Trigram Gen in Yin Wood of Hetu (河圖)
This is also the basic difference between Chinese ancient book and principle from Viet civilization.
* Trigram Gen in Viet civilization has the original conventional feature of Yin Wood (Has proved in “Back to the origin of I Ching”).
* Trigram Gen in Chinese ancient book, Gen (艮 gèn) has the original feature of “Mountain”. With the principle of Trigram Gen is “Mountain” in Chinese ancient book, it explains nothing. But with Trigram Gen with the original feature of Yin Wood from Viet civilization, we will explain the issue persisted–
The Earth in the interrelationships of the solar system from Yin and Yang theory and Five element theory.
Therefore, from the basic principle of Lac Viet “Later Heaven” Bagua (eight symbols) combining Hetu (河圖), Trigram Gen is in Yin Wood, so how is the relationship between Yin Wood - Gen (艮 gèn) with the Earth in the interrelationships of the solar system?
Now would you reassess the order of the Solar system from inside to outside:
Before explaining this issue, the writer would like to note of the names of two planets in the solar system of Venus and Mercury:
* Mercury is named after contemporary Astronomy, or Venus is called according to the ancient Oriental astronomy book.
* Venus is named after contemporary Astronomy, or Mercury is called according to the ancient Oriental astronomy book (according to Pangu (盤古), Book of Han (漢書).
The order of the following solar system – with two names of these stars named after ancient book - will be:
@ Sun => Venus => Mercury => Earth => Mars.
This is the “Planet system of group I”, according to the categorization of the contemporary Astronomy)
@ The belt of meteorite with hundreds of million of large and small meteorite blocks is also moving around the Sun (The largest block has the length of hundreds of Km).
@ Jupiter => Saturn =>Uranus => Neptune => Pluto.
(Planet system of group II, according to the categorization of the contemporary Astronomy)
If now the Sun is taken as Earth element (According to the principle of center of Earth in Yin and Yang and Five element theory), ta will see one direction of generating Wu Xing from inside to outside – compare with the name of Sun and planets – as follows: Wu Xing (五行): Earth (Sun) => bears Metal (Venus/ According to the ancient book) => carries Water (Mercury/ According to the ancient book) => nourishes Wood (Equivalent to Earth) => feeds Fire (Mars).
In planet of group II, ancient book only mentioned two stars but it is enough to see the overcoming principle is: Jupiter (Wood) parts Earth (Saturn)
Therefore, you can see that the Earth is equivalent to Wood element. According to Yin and Yang theory and Five element theory, when the generating principle is in the Yang, physical object will be in the Yin (the Yin of the Yang). Therefore, the Sun and planets inside the belt of meteorite is in the Yin and our Earth is Yin Wood: That is position of Trigram Gen in Hetu (河圖).
Refer the below picture:
(http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll114/thuytien1112/284.jpg)
So, according to the above proving, the earth is Yin Wood, the statue of Trigram Gen in Hetu (河圖) and in the direction of generating cycle of the solar system from inside to outside and the sun is in the Earth. With this current structure of the solar hệ thống, this is the perfect explanation of Yin and Yang theory and Five element theory. (...)
http://diendan.lyhocdongphuong.org.vn/chu-de/3560-principle-of-ancient-oriental-astrology-and-the-secret-of-the-universe/
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Well... Was too interesting not to check haha..
So Sun and Jupiter are in the Zi parts of the sky. Moon will be hours difference, so I'm ok without it.
Sidereal chart for 17 December 1923 0:00:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCKH3zhY/conjuction1.png)
Tropical chart for 17 december 1923 0:00:
https://i.postimg.cc/cCKH3zhY/conjuction1.png (https://i.postimg.cc/cCKH3zhY/conjuction1.png)
We are using Zet coz its awesome.
Its not perfect and Moon isn't there yet too, so there is some drifting off, but it is something real at least.
Thanks to everyone that participated, more checking into it when I have some more time. : )
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Well... I guess no point figuring out what part of the chart would be Zi, as in here Jupiter and Sun are in the lowest middle part, where Zi is in Lo Shu.
And both so close together on that day in that part of the chart can't be a coincidence, so I think we can accept this was what the year pillar was originally based on.
However, if we look at it carefully we can see they aren't on top of each other. Jupiter has drifted way off almost moved to where would be Gen Trigram in later heaven...
I would guess that is either because the sidereal period of Jupiter is less then 12 years as already mention(exact number is Jupiter: 11.86177556 from here btw: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mean_conjunctions.html (http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mean_conjunctions.html), although it seems unlikely as it would drift much, much more if it was that)
Or because they actually did use tropical view and didn't account for the precession. We use fixed degrees to align both charts now, so it doesn't look like a big difference, but its a lot for 4 thousand years and would it would need very different corrections.
In any case, Jupiter seems to be drifting away, Moon doesn't fit perfectly too.
Still too close, to be a coincidence thousand of years after the calendar started...
So I would think of it that way. First possible development. They did made it based on that. However, they didn't knew enough to made it accurate enough to be able to continue for so long. Second possible development. They made it based on something too complicated to explain at the time(much like QMDJ or ZWDS), and presented this so its more widely accepted. Then just align a date to a conjunction that they knew was going to drift off, while the calendar itself calculated something else behind it that wouldn't.
I like second one more.
So at the same time somewhere behind it all there is some 12 /10 year relation that fits perfectly to what is calculated. Be that sunspot activity or whatever, someday we will find out I believe. But it can't be this, this is already drifting of in both sidereal and tropical way of viewing it.
I do believe we will find out with time, though. I've worked with many systems that use random info, they can never be so accurate. So there is another reason behind it all and as I said I can believe in the idea that maybe the people that created the calendar knew, while they presented it for astronomy relation for everyone else and made it start from there so it fits at first glance.
So while fixing the relation to something else, they could have said Jupiter <>Sun <> Moon was the reason and was actually aligning it to something much more primal and important that we currently may not know(though I can guess, but much, much more testing will be needed in the future in very different fields).
Anyway, thanks to everyone this was useful in many ways.
And I know a lot of its parts we "agreed to disagreed" with, much like the month branch inversion. But its all good, it was interesting and useful topic in my view. : )
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Hi All,
Thank you Gmuli for your researches, maybe TenVirtues and Rapanui will help again to clarify..
Article written by Danny H.Van den Berghe: The Chinese Calendar
"The Chinese calendar is based on planetary cycles in our solar system.
You can also download the PDF here:
https://fourpillars.net/pdf/chincal.pdf
https://fourpillars.net/chincal.php
North Pole, Big Dipper, Equatorial, Sun and Moon conjunction to begin the lunar months, Planets, Chinese Constellations, seem to be used in ancient China...
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Hi,
did you consider WHY Zi month is the first month?
I see as the first cause the number for EB Zi is 1 and this is the first EB! 8)
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Hi,
did you consider WHY Zi month is the first month?
I see as the first cause the number for EB Zi is 1 and this is the first EB! 8)
True, although it may play some role that the day in both calendars changes at Zi as well.
And of course, Zi is both the the time when Yin has reached its peak and the old flows are being let go of and also the time when new Yang(we can call it impulse from the Source, or whatever we want) is starting to be born that will expand and later contract for the new year.
So in a way the Yang that will expand in the coming year(and later contract) is born at this point, as well the time when the old impulse will die.
However, Yin Tiger is the time when that is manifesting in the world around us(as during the water months its still a process deep within, like a tree without leafs, there are immense renewal taking place from its roots, but the world won't see it, more often).
Both have some logic depending what we are viewing in my view(Zi and Yin). I'm happy with Yin for the year change and Zi for the day change, makes sense in my view, as we can see the Spring signs in Yin, while at time of Yin in the day we really can't.
But if we want to understand what they were thinking we need to use their framework. So Zi as first month in this case.
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Hi All,
Thank you Gmuli for your researches, maybe TenVirtues and Rapanui will help again to clarify..
Article written by Danny H.Van den Berghe: The Chinese Calendar
"The Chinese calendar is based on planetary cycles in our solar system.
You can also download the PDF here:
https://fourpillars.net/pdf/chincal.pdf
https://fourpillars.net/chincal.php
North Pole, Big Dipper, Equatorial, Sun and Moon conjunction to begin the lunar months, Planets, Chinese Constellations, seem to be used in ancient China...
Its good he is curious and tried looking for that, but the whole article is not very thought through in my humble opinion.
Neptune and Uranus has conjunction every 168 years. He is basing everything on the idea its 3600. It just isn't. If we think the idea is that every 3600 years it will be at the same place that isn't accurate either, more info below.
The whole key to the Chinese calendar is in the Neptune-Uranus conjunction, because every 3600 years
these planets come back to form a new conjunction almost in the same place as 3600 years before. This
is clear from the second chart which shows the start of the 2nd Epoch in 964:
Sounds good, but at 4564 they aren't anywhere near each other this time around. So the provided info isn't fully checked.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFMkK5rS/4564.png)
Here could be tempting to say "ohh, but if Jupier and Uranus are so near and we looked at them before...", but no, they are away from each other at previous revolution at 964 and starting of the current Epoch.
Anyway, somewhat interested attempt to find a relation, but the info is all around the place and too inaccurate to really be worth going into too much.
Its not a critic though, happens to everyone, just means we may need some other point of view, if we hope to find out the relation for the epoch. And that one is fine to have drifting off, as we aren't using it practically in the Arts as far as I'm aware. : )
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Well... We did comment on the Jupiter/Year Pillar relation, but indeed there are some differences here. One is that there is some understanding the period isn't exactly 12 years.
Two sets of terms were used, one an astronomical set of terms for the positions of the real Jupiter, and a further set of "astrological" terms for the positions of the imaginary planet.
Fair enough. its not what I'm looking to find, but it is interesting to know. : )
Other then that The Monk seems to have been closer, but in my view, there is always connection, just sometimes it much harder to find(we may have to go to cycles of rotation of different geometric forms in the lightbody etc.).
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I think it doesn't really matter. Two versions have the right to exist.
It as in QMDJ it is possible to build the map on time and the place of the Master or on time and the place of the one who asks a question.
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I think it doesn't really matter. Two versions have the right to exist.
It as in QMDJ it is possible to build the map on time and the place of the Master or on time and the place of the one who asks a question.
Well... If you mean 2 Jupiters, of course.
ZWDS is based on that, all stars there are virtual and works very well.
No problem with virtual stars, I'm just wondering if they are pointing to something that we use in other systems and know from elsewhere. As in my experience its usually the case. And I can give countless examples, from Lo Shu and its path, being viewed as the "Earth Magic Square" many, many years back, long before we knew anything about the Five Arts in the west, to the Kabbalistic Tree of Life in old Five Arts texts, and modern acupuncture ones having nothing to do with Kabbalah, and countless others...
At the end if something resonates with all it will exist in most systems. Even the simple idea of 6th line not changing when following Ti/Yong movement through the Palaces, that is looked in much depth in Kabbalah as the 3 highest Sephirot can never be reached, but not because we fall down, but because the Tree expands when it seems we will get to them. That suggest that before Wondering Spirit there is immense inner change that happens, that in Kabbalah would be opening of a new Tree of Life in us, however as the Yi Jing follows the other relations that has been missed.
So again - same paths, same movements, just a very different point of view, but the reality behind is still the same, as that is where all of these has been seen and taken from.
So my idea is that in my experience its always same flow behind it all. Just takes time and sometimes knowledge/experience to be able to connect it all. And for this specific case, when it comes to most of the Five Arts I guess I'm not there yet. But it will work with time. It always does. : )
Anyway, my idea was - no problem with virtual stars. However, the fact we can't see them when we look at the sky, doesn't mean they don't exist anywhere, outside of the paper.
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Question:
If I replace Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water, with Sour, Bitter, Sweet, Pungent and Salty; in short, the Five Elements with Five Tastes instead.
Would you still need to change the Seasons to match?
I don't think the tastes fit very well. The colors of the foods either. White foods are metal, in theory, great, but when we have so many exceptions, because of taste or other factors, then it isn't a rule, its just trying to use a system on a framework that doesn't really fit into it.
So no, at their practical use doesn't seem to fit very well to reality and it seems just approximation, so a familiar division can be used somewhere else, it wouldn't be needed. Just my view, of course and I don't know a lot about the practical aspect of the five elements in food.
I've been asking a lot lately, as usual. And I was trying to see if the tastes work. It seems they do, very well, with WWG as well.
So fair to make a correction here - didn't see their relevance before, but they do work. : )