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Library => Bazi => Info on BAZI CALCULATOR => Topic started by: ren on October 30, 2019, 10:41:18 PM
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I'm not going to second guess the bazi-calculator math. Rather, I think you probably asking for (equally weighted and not time weighted) the option to exclude/remove from "today date" month & day pillar out of the strength calculation. Sounds interesting.
It would be interested to see how the strength calculation chart looks like if the elements are computation using time weighted: where Year is given full weight, month 1/12 and day 1/360. Just my thoughts.
Sorry Ren, no comment on number 2. I don't know how the math works. Unless you want to share with me / us the math.
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Hi,
well the calculation method is somewhat complicated, so I don't want to explain it precisely.
In short, the calculator counts not only 4 pillars of "date to compare" but also luck pillar and xing nian.
If you would like to see 5 elements without month, day and hour you can select "Compact view" option in the options section. This way you get calculations only for year pillar without month, day, hour. You can also switch off xing nian in options.
And the conflicts/combinations question. This is very interesting what you say. I also thought about it some time ago, but I didn't know how to approach that (what math to use):
Conflicts could reduce the power of element by, what, 50%? But what if one element is strong already, then it only subdues the weaker one without really being weakend. The other, weaker, could have its power reduced to 0. But on the other hand when both elements are equally strong, they both could get 50% of their power. Maybe 50%, maybe 20%. I think it's hard to put it in numbers. But if you have some idea... maybe we could try.
Combinations - when you use classic (non-MangPai) approach, then you can use transformation option in the calculator. Transformations can be changed below the chart. You can set an element to turn into another element. Then on 5 elements chart you get new values for transformed elements. So combinations are in this way included in the calculator.
Of course we could try to give then even more power, for example increase elements in triangular combination by 150% or so. But these numbers are again hard to estimate.
Myself I treat 5 elements charts as a rough estimation only and rather try to evaluate them "personally". Charts are rather a "first glance" help.
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Let me add this onto you thought @Voytek ,
@ren does your idea include negative strength (-) or will it just end up with 0 strength?
I would guess 0 strength means no value or useless element & negative means element(s) harms the DM / chart.
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Sorry for the multiple postings, thing just pop up when I started thinking about this. @ren , I think I read somewhere David twicken quantified element strengths in a chart. I tried it before but the number doesn't add up. So I gave up.
If u want, u can pm me in the other forum and provide me the details & I'll create an example in Excel. If it works out, u can forward it to whomever u want afterward.
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I would like to add one more clarification here.
If you are MangPai user, then you would probably completely ignore pie charts (or almost completely).
If you are traditional BaZi user, then of course charts are useful. But myself I usually didn't put more attention to pie charts than a few second glance. Really, I think they are secondary thing. To determine elements strength, count 5 elements on chart (quantity), look at the season and qi phases (quality), look at interactions, look at how 5 element cycles influence the chart. 90% information about 5 elements are on BaZi chart, 10% is pie charts, the latter are only visual aid. I even considered completely hiding percentage values, because they distract from what's important.
So, of course I put many days to prepare those charts, but I don't put more than few seconds to look at them.
Also, I rather use them when I look at Natal Chart, but don't really use them to look at Luck Pillars. Five elements in LPs are rather to be read from LP stem and branch simply. At least this is my experience.
One last thing is that I am recently rather a MangPai user because I find this way more effective, but here I still have many things to learn :)
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@ren , Shang is growth & Ke is control? For my learning purpose, is it possible to give an example just so I can get a visual representation? A made up example is fine.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uv6pTlIKKs
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Thanks for sharing your thought about strength calculations in Bazi-Calculator.
I totally agree. The use of the Strength chart in Bazi plays a very minor part.
For beginners, it is an easy sell as a visual way to read a chart.
Yes, I really think strength chart is a minor part.
However, I can assure you nothing in my calculator was designed to be a quick sell. Rather, it was designer as a tool that would be useful for myself and my friends initially, later shared with the public.
Elements calculations method are not my invention. Depeding on option, they come from this or another modern master. Most stuff connected with traditional BaZi are I think from Ken Lai school. While I have his agreement to use his techniques, I don't have his permission to share them (sorry).
So, the charts are a quick glance for me, but they are not taken "from hat". :D
I was initially introduced to Bazi as a way to understand the five element balance within a person, not to read the chart.
We used the five elements to help understand how to balance a person's life via Qigong and other methods.
We also do this in Chinese Medicine.
I totally agree, this is how I currently use them. I think they can be useful in TCM.
So, I like having the calculated strength information. And Yes I only used the natal chart info.
Yes, the Natal chart elemental info is quite straightforward.
If we come to "date to compare" chart, thing get really complicated.
This is because it all depends on what purpose we want to use this information for.
To see current year energy? Or current date? Or current year with LP?
To see energy levels during a specific time (for TCM or QiGong)? Or to compare the energy to day master strength chart?
There are completely different uses.
In fact, one would need to project different chart for different uses.
But still, these charts are trying to put metaphysics in numbers, which is quite bold, maybe arrogant idea, from the very start! :D
(...)
Its interesting to note, when looking from a traditional Bazi reference, one thinks about the strong / weak - favorable / unfavorable groupings. From a five element reference we look at the Shang / Ke cycle primarily (especially the Ke cycle).
Thanks, it's valuable. This is one more thing I don't take into account.
So many factors. That one would be used for the purpose of energy levels (TCM) rather then DM strength comparison (current design is leaning towards the latter).
Voytek, I am glad you mentioned that your calculation add the LP and Xing Nian, as I don't think I would want those influences added into my view.
Sure, for some purposes, it would be good to see energy levels without it. But to some other purposes... isn't LP most important influence? :D
Isn't AP important? Isn't LP important? Isn't current season important? How to count all that? :o
Let's end with the conclusion, that there are many factors, some of them I didn't think about, thanks for mentioning those.
The algorhytm is not my invention. I know that it's not perfect and is not taking many considerations into account.
Some time ago I thought of testing it on thousands of charts somehow and perfecting it. But recently I am more into MangPai, so I don't feel like directing my time energy in this direction.
Generally the above charts are designed mostly for DM strength calculation, work best for Natal chart, as for Date to compare, they are including all pillars with LP, are not including interactions and 5 element cycles.
Creating perfect charts would be a task for ...months or even years of design and testing! And would need to include different charts used for different purposes. :-\
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Hi, no problem, really, thank you for sharing this information.
Could I kindly ask who was your instructor? This is very interesting for me, for historical reasons. :)
Big respect to your instructor. Calculating methods used in traditional BaZi are to me, as I said quite, bold and not perfect, but useful for different aspects, like TCM, not only classic DM strength.
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i'm curious what ren said about calculations in bazi-calculator.
;D
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i'm curious what ren said about calculations in bazi-calculator. ;D
Please welcome my teacher RapaNui :) RapaNui studied with several masters, not only Ken Lai but also Joseph Yu and other masters.
Most knowledge about traditional BaZi I have from you @Rapanui, many thanks to you :)
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ren, while you're waiting for the others to upgrade their system, please take a look at the attachment if you're interested in a bandage solution.
Nice work, thanks for sharing, I think you could upgrade it a little, depending on which BaZi school you want to use, I think:
- qi phase multipliers (shifting qi depending on season) should be handled,
- different HHS proportions should be used (instead of 1.00 for every HHS),
- most masters also use "ours"/"theirs" band multipliers and excludes DM which is treated as a reference point.
Well, it's a long story and really every master has his own method, but for simple calculations the above are still necessary :)
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Thanks, I have thought about it. In the end, I just want to keep things simple. Besides only 5elements (ignoring polarity), why bother to go into specific classification / calculation.
If Ren does decide to use the file, I'm interested in how @ren might use this information.
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The information provide is certainly much more details than what I did in my Excel sheet (my objective was to be simple).
However, here is my thinking. When presenting the information in a pie chart, removing the numbers (%weight) & using identical data (meaning pillars right now), then regardless how you treat the weights of AP/LP or both, the results appearance would look very similar. Graphical presentation shouldn't be off by too much because the sum of the weight will always be 1 or 100%.
When unsure of the weight for LP / Ap, then use average or equal weight of the two. Also, the chart represents specific time or moment, thus time weight is ignore.
What does other think about this approach?
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In traditional BaZi the strengthness of "DM gang" is important to calculate which "gang" ("my gang" or "other gang") must be strengthen. Each method of calculating the strengthness is create by masters to help their students (by mathematics) to find which "gang" is stronger.
But each master says that this is "HELP" and the accurate of this "HELP" is not 100%.
;D ;) :(
There is interesting method of calculating the strength of DM created by Peter Leung. PL calculates not only the strength of any element but also which is the strength of element with its support (+the strength of supporting element) and its draining (-the strength of output). And each month of birth has multipliers for 10 stems of course.
8)
If you want to know I prefer the simpliest and the oldest method:
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Thanks for the information. I really have no interest in the math part. Rather I was hoping Ren or someone explain to me how to control / produce an element in the physical world. For example, let say natal chart & AP / LP has excess metal. Ok, how does one control metal using physical self: do we drink more water, wear red color shirts (fire) or perform heavy lifting exercises? Now, metal is weak, should the person work in the farm, move dirt or go to the beach?
Since I'm not a master, guess I'm allow to come up with ideas that is not the norm. Personally, I prefer every thing to be equally weighted. Although less accurate, but for estimation, arithmetic calculation is much easily to work with. If we look into history, I don't think Chinese invented the % concept. :-*
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Hi @Voytek,
am just curious as you mentioned that you remove the % off the pie chart, is this the same pie chart on the ten gods as i can see the % on the calculator though.
sorry in advance if my question is silly, if i missed something in my reading
cheers
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am just curious as you mentioned that you remove the % off the pie chart, is this the same pie chart on the ten gods as i can see the % on the calculator though.
I was considering removing it, but after all, many users are using it this way and find it useful. So the option stays. There are many BaZi schools, many of them calculate DM strength and 10 gods strength.
What is important to rememeber is that any calculations are only approximation, it not possible to count energy precisely :) We are dealing with metaphysics.
But since it is useful for students of many BaZi schools out there, let's leave it this way.