I’d definitely go with July 17th, 子 time.

Solar midnight in Penang on July 16th-17th 1970 was 12:54pm. If he was born at 1am, that puts him after midnight (so July 17th), in the second half of 子.

𡈼戊癸庚
子戌未戌
癸辛乙丁

Weak earth chart.

What’s his Exact birth Hour & city of birth?

What is the practical applications  in knowing this big number of permutations  ?

All these permutations can flash out our thoughts inside a query ?
...

It’s not practical, it’s academic. Although calculating the answer ourselves does require that we contemplate & take into consideration many different practical variables, so it’s a way of reinforcing what you know, and the answer can also be used as a guideline to determine whether or not another practitioner is of the same school of thought or not.

As per request, I’m starting a thread on the total number of Liu Yao combinations.

Due to some confusion regarding my post about the total number of Ba Zi permutations, I’ll be offering a variety of different calculations.

If there are other tallies that I miss, please add them to the thread.

First things first: the total number of castable hexagrams

This part is easy, thank goodness!

We have 64 hexagrams. Each hexagram can have changing lines which change it into one of the other 63 hexagrams.

64x63=4,032 possible physical castings.

Now, as for including the date of casting... well, that depends on how many pillars a person is using, as well as whether or not they are taking the “hidden stem Branch flavors” Into account!

Let’s start with the traditional, flavorless date layout of month pillar + day pillar:

60 months x 60 days = 3,600

So we have 3,600 different dates where we can cast 4,032 different hexagrams...

3,600 x 4,032 = 14,515,200 different casting scenarios!

Now, I’ve seen some references to schools including the (still flavorless) year pillar.

In that case, 60 years x 12 months x 60 days = 43,200 different casting dates.

43,200 x 4,032 = 174,182,400 different casting scenarios!

I have ALSO seen references to schools excluding the year pillar but including The hour pillar.

Since there are two schools of thought on how many hour pillars are in a day (12 or 13), let’s do the math for both:

12 hours x 60 days x 60 months = 43,200

43,200 x 4,032 = 174,182,400 different casting scenarios

13 hours x 60 days x 60 months = 46,800

46,800 x 4,032 = 188,697,600 different casting scenarios

Lastly, some people use all 4 pillars, and again we’ll have two different results based on how the hour pillar is being laid out (12 or 13 hours):

60 years x 12 months x 60 days x 12 hours = 518,400

518,400 x 4,032 = 2,090,188,800 different casting scenarios

60 years x 12 months x 60 days x 13 hours = 561,600

561,600 x 4,032 = 2,264,371,200 different casting scenarios.

Now, I’m going to add “flavor”. This means I’m going to calculate the scenarios based on which hidden stem is dominant in any given branch, which is dependent on exactly where in a branch’s cycle the casting occurs.

Starting with just the month & day branch, we must do some tedious, repetitious calculations:

60 month branch 气 times x 60 day Branch 气 times = 3,600
60 month branch 气 times x 60 day branch early 节 times = 3,600;
60 month branch 气 times x 35 day branch mid 节 times = 2,100;
60 month branch early 节 times x 60 day branch 气 times = 3,600;
60 month branch early 节 times x 60 day branch early 节 times = 3,600;
60 month branch early 节 times x 35 day branch mid 节 times = 2,100;
35 month branch mid 节 times x 60 day branch 气 times = 2,100;
35 month branch mid 节 times x 60 day branch early 节 times = 2,100;
35 month branch mid 节 times x 35 day branch mid 节 times = 1,125;

Total number of different casting dates: 23,925

23,925 x 4,032 = 96,465,600 different “flavored” casting scenarios!

Taking into account all 4 “flavored” pillars (13 hour pillars), we’d get:


2,264,125 x 4,032 = 9,128,952,000 “flavored” casting scenarios!

So, even with just the traditional, “flavorless” day & month pillars, we get over 14.5 million different casting scenarios... and additional “flavorless” pillars can drive the number of possibilities up to over 2.2 BILLION different casting scenarios.

“Flavored” day & month pillars give us almost 96.5 million different casting scenarios, and additional “flavored” pillars can drive up the number of possibilities to over 9 BILLION different casting scenarios.

*note: my use of “节” & “气” labels outside of the month pillar is simply to identify the beginning, middle & end of a branch cycle, regardless of which pillar it is in.

Quote from: CyberDaoist on September 23, 2020, 01:32:26 PM

Not my final answer.

So...what is your final answer?
 
How many charts can be erected from HS & EB in 8 characters ("Ba Zi" means "8 characters").
 

Ok, we seem to be stuck on a semantic, & it’s my fault for not being clear enough. I’ll keep that in mind for the future.

What I’m saying is that there are 561,600 flavorless Ba Zi charts (strictly 8 characters)

.... but 2,264,125 Ba Zi chart flavors (or 4,528,250 flavors if you factor gender into it). 😀

Quote from: CyberDaoist on September 22, 2020, 06:25:12 PM

LOL, Ok I guess I always saw the hidden stems as sitting “inside” the branches, not as “extra characters”. So I’ve always considered them to be part of the 8 characters.

You want to replace 12 EB by 28 HHS or by 24 ST.
 
Sorry... but in the second line MUST be EB.
 

I agree! I’m not suggesting that the EB be replaced with hidden stems. I’m saying that 9/12 EB have different flavors... green 寅，red 寅，yellow 寅，etc.

28 different flavors of the 12 branches. Almost like Baskin’ Robins 😁

Before we begin, I’d like to clarify how the term Ba Zi is being used in this article:

When I speak of Ba Zi, I am speaking explicitly about the 8 characters that make up the 4 pillars of a calendrical date.

I am not speaking about Da Yun, or about any particular school of Ba Zi.

 I am referring very specifically to the four pillars containing the 8 characters & their qualities.

Ok, let’s go!

I know, I know. This topic AGAIN. As if it hasn’t been written about & discussed enough through the ages and online!

...but here’s the thing about this calculation.

It’s important because the answer to this question is a lot like a password or a secret handshake that lets practitioners find their peers.

By peers, I mean two things: on the one hand, it’s a way of determining the level of knowledge that practitioners have, and on the other, it’s a way of determining whether or not someone is from the same school of thought.

As far as level of knowledge is concerned, the determination is basic.

We all know that there are demonstrably inaccurate answers to the question!

For example, when we meet someone who’s claiming to be practicing Chinese Astrology & they tell us that there are 12 animals so therefore 12 possibilities, we know that they are probably not aware of the Ba Zi or even the sexagenary cycle.

Likewise, someone who claims that there are 60 possibilities is aware of the sexagenary cycle, but not of Ba Zi.

When someone claims that there are 12,960,000 possibilities, it’s a clear indication that they know about Ba Zi.

But it’s ALSO an indicator that they might not know much!

They may have calculated this number themselves, in which case they may be doing self-study, which is both difficult & prone to mistakes.

There’s nothing wrong with self-study, but it requires an inquisitive & insightful mind.

An answer of 12,960,000 indicates that they either have not yet had the insight needed to bring them to the next answer.

In a similar vein, they may have read the answer in a book, or been taught this number by a teacher. It’s very common for students to accept what their teacher has to say unquestioningly, but it raises the possibility that any other material they are learning is also missing a level of detail & understanding.

Here’s where things get interesting, though.

Any answer besides those first three begin to point not to knowledge level, but to school of thought!

For example, 518,600 is the standard answer given by many trained practitioners.

This answer sends a clear signal that the practitioner has, at the very least, studied from a source that understands the fundamental way that the Chinese calendar works.

On the other hand some practitioners might give an answer of 561,600. This answer is no better or worse than 518,600.

It does point to a different approach in date calculation, but one that still understands the fundamentals.

So whichever answer is given signals the school of thought that the practitioner is studying & practicing.

Other answers DO, however, exist!

Both of the answers above are, I would say, the two main answers given by practitioners studying from sources that have a decent understanding of Ba Zi.

Most popular schools use one of the above calculations.

When someone gives a different answer than 518,600 or 561,600, then it is very likely that they are studying something besides mainline Ba Zi Analysis.

Their answers might seem weird or inaccurate to practitioners who do not practice the same style, but it’s important to give them the benefit of the doubt: their answer might be logical within the context of their style’s calculations!

The bottom line, however, is that the answer to “how many charts are there” is a quick & easy way to determine whether or not the person you’re talking to has awareness of Ba Zi, & if so, whether or not they have correct fundamental knowledge of Ba Zi, & if so, what school of thought they belong to.

Armed with this information makes it easier to decide how much Ba Zi knowledge you have in common, as well as on what level you wish to discuss Ba Zi with them.


Oof, that was a lot!

But I needed to get all that out of the way in order to set up this next section.

You see, I’ve recently changed my answer to this question DRASTICALLY.

Like most practitioners, I went through all of the various stages of answers: twelve, sixty, 12,960,000, & then 518,600, until I finally settled on 561,600.... until recently.

Something I’d always wondered about was the effects of the 24 solar terms on a chart.

I understood the importance of the Jie (节) in determining the start of a season or month, but I knew that each month had both a Jie & a Qi (气), which determined the mid-point of the month.

Each of the 24 solar terms has its own name and its own energetic quality.

If that was the case, then shouldn’t the solar term that a person is born in play a role in the layout & structure of their Ba Zi?

If two people were born in 巳 month, but one was born in the 节 of the month & the other was born in the 气 of the month, wouldn’t that impact the energetic quality of 巳 in their chart?

The answer was, yes!

Of course it would.

But how?

As I started my research, I came across Yuan Hai ZiPing’s Lùn tiān gàn dìzhī àncáng zǒng jué (论 天 干 地 支 暗 藏 总 诀, “On the hidden general secret of the Heavenly stems & earthly branches”).

This text clearly laid out the idea that the energetic qualities of a particular branch were directly influenced by both its 节 & 气, and that the energetic variations were encoded using the hidden stems!

Each earth branch has one, two or three hidden stems.

In my school, the hidden stems were initially divided into two categories: each branch has a major hidden stem, and one or two lesser hidden stems.

When determining the primary energetic quality of an earthly branch, we looked to the major hidden stem.

It was what we used to determine whether or not a branch was supporting or depleting the Day Master & whether or not a branch was providing a root to an element in the heavenly stems, & whether or not it was vetoing heavenly specific heavenly stem combinations, among other things.

I had always assumed that the major hidden stem was so named because it was the strongest of the hidden stems... until I learned about the concept of variable hidden stem “dominance” as determined by the 节气!

ZiPing’s text explained that each hidden stem dominated, or became strongest, during a particular time of the month.

For example, in the 气 of any given month branch, the hidden stem traditionally called the “major hidden stem” always dominated, whereas the hidden stems traditionally called the “lesser hidden stems” always dominated during the 节 of the month.

Let’s look at branch 寅 as an example.

寅 has three hidden stems - “lesser hidden stems” 戊 & 丙,  & “Major hidden stem” 甲.

The two solar terms contained within 寅 are the 节 of Li Chun (立春 beginning of spring) & the 气 of Yu Shui (雨水 rain water).

Li Chun & Yu Shui are each ~15 days long.

During Yu Shui, the last 15 days of 寅, the hidden stem of 甲 is the dominant energy.

However, during Li Chun, the first 15 days of 寅, the hidden stems of 戊 or 丙 are the dominant energy!

Hidden stem 戊 is the dominant energy for the first five days of Li Chun, & then hidden stem 丙 is the dominant energy for the next ten days.

Together, the days of 寅 month where hidden stems 戊 & 丙 are dominant make up the full 15 days of Li Chun.

This revelation gave me a whole new perspective on the meaning of “major hidden stem” & “lesser hidden stem”.

The term “major hidden stem” referred not to the strength of the stem, but to the AMOUNT OF TIME that it was dominant during the month!

Likewise, the “lesser hidden stems” were so named not because they were weaker, but because they were dominant for a LESSER AMOUNT OF TIME.

My mind was blown.

This meant that, for any given month branch, I shouldn’t be looking to the major hidden stem to determine the main energetic quality... instead, I should be looking to the hidden stem that was DOMINANT at the time of birth!

This changed everything.

It meant that each earthly branch could have up to three different dominant energetic qualities... or three different “flavors”.

Since the twelve branches have a total of twenty eight hidden stems, it meant that every year, there were not just twelve, but actually TWENTY EIGHT different energetic qualities that could manifest in the month pillar!

Now, there’s a chapter in the Huang Di Nei Jing Ling Shu (yellow emperor’s inner classic of the spiritual pivot) that explains how the divisions of a day correspond to the divisions of a year... namely, each day has 24 hours which are divided by the 12 earthly branches into 4 periods - midnight corresponds to winter solstice, 6am corresponds to spring equinox, noon to summer solstice & 6pm to autumn equinox.

The important point is that each Chinese double hour can therefore be divided into a first hour which corresponds to the 节, or first 15 days of a month, & a second hour which corresponds to the 气, or last 15 days of a month.

This in turn means that the hour, even the MINUTE of birth has great importance on determining the energetic quality of the hour branch.

For example, two people are born on the same day, one at 3:50pm and another at 4:15pm. They are both born in 申 hour, which is from 3pm to 5pm.

However, since the second hour is equivalent to the 气 of the month, it means that the person born at 4:15pm is actually born at a time when hidden stem 庚 is the dominant energy, whereas the person born at 3:50pm is actually born at a time that is equivalent to the later part of 节... so the dominant energy is actually hidden stem 壬!

Now, depending on your school of thought, each day has either 28 or 29 hidden stems in the hour pillar. So that means that, in a single given day, there are up to 29 different energetic qualities that could manifest in the hour pillar!

The correspondences extend to both the year & the day pillars as well.

The first half of a day & first half of a year correspond to the 节 of a month, while the last half of a day & last half of a year correspond to the 气 of a month.

However since the days & years are not restricted to cyclic relationships in the same way as the months & hours, it means that the 5x12 rule of sexagenary combination applies... meaning 28 hidden stems multiplied by the 5 elements of the heavenly stems gives a total of 140 different energetic combinations that can appear in either the day pillar or the hour pillar!

When I realized this, I could barely contain my excitement.

After testing this new (to me) method of calculation out on a variety of charts, I realized that it provided much more accurate information & actually helped me understand the “tricky” charts I had which never seemed to quite match up to their owner’s reality.

Very soon, I began to wonder how many total charts were now possible with this new level of complexity.

My initial calculation was as follows:

29 hour pillar flavors
x 140 day pillar flavors
x 28 month pillar flavors
x 140 year pillar flavors
= 15,915,200 possible chart permutations!

I was flabbergasted.

I knew that this added complexity was going to increase the total number of permutations, but I didn’t expect the number to be THAT high.

...and then I saw my mistake.

As it turns out, not every flavor would match up with every other flavor in the other pillars.

For example, in a 巳 year, the dominant energy of 庚, which appeared in the last half of the year, would only match up with the last 6 month branches of the year.

It wouldn’t be dominant during the first six branches.

This meant that only 13 of the 28 month pillar flavors would match up with a 巳 year branch with 庚 as the dominant hidden stem.

Likewise, a 巳 branch day with the dominant energy of 戊 would only appear in the first four hours of the day.

This meant that only 6 of the 29 hour pillar flavors would match up with a 巳 day branch that had 戊 as the dominant energy.


The total number of restrictive permutations was a chore to derive & calculate.

But, it could be done, and so I set about figuring out the exact number of chart permutations that were possible.

The final answer ends up being (drumroll)....

2,264,125 total chart permutations.

So that’s my answer.

It’s my “secret code” to help determine whether or not someone is practicing along the same lines as I am.

Is it better than 518,600 or 561,600?

No, it’s just a different school of thought.

One that I am happy to share here in the hopes that someone might find it useful...

...or that someone might recognize my code... because as of right now, I’m the only person I know who uses it.

Get in touch if you use the same approach!

Thanks for adding me!

I’m here because I was invited & because I’m looking for a forum where I can practice my reading skills & discuss Ba Zi & Liu Yao / Yi Jing / Wen Wang Gua in a non-toxic environment.