Liu Yao for Relationship Query: Should I contact him again today and ask him to meet up tomorrow?

[The-Monk]

So then on the question...  How would you define Self/Others(or Ti and Yong?) in Liu Yao context?

And that would be different depending on the question, of course, but there have to be some general definition.

I'm afraid there is no secret sauce here on my end. By and large, what you have read from Jlim is what I will be using as well. As for general definition, "Yours/Directly Related to you" and "Not Yours/Not Directly Related to you" is the basic starting point for me. Everything else comes from logic and understanding.

But the Sibling line will produce the Yong line(Si>Wei), so shouldn't it interact only with its original line and not with Ti as well?

Depending on what school of thought you choose to take.

If a line can only interact with the line it transforms from, or transforms into, then surely it is impossible for Three Way Combinations to happen? 
If a line cannot bring itself its own misfortune when it runs counter to the goal that it transforms from, then surely it is impossible to go from a sure win situation to total loser?
If a line showing two parties at peace with each other; akin to comrades in arms, surely it is impossible for them to become even closer after a changing line transforms into a Six Combation?

But I think we all know that isn't the case. And such instances occur all too often in life, and the Liu Yao Gua needs to represent this.

Now, depending on point of view being taken for the interpretation.

If what you say is the case, the Self and Other line, when observed as the emotional state between the two as well as each others goals and desires, we can be certain that the guy that the girl may have interest in, will have ideas that slowly are at odds with the girl regarding a relationship; because Earth on the Other Line will cause issue for Water on the Self Line; resulting in becoming even furter from each other ideologically in terms of starting and maintaining a succesful relationship.

If you look at the point of view for the guy. The guy will clearly have "friends" who will push and egg them on to not proceed with a relationship with the girl. This result pleases the guy anyway, so will be the more ideal outcome. But no matter what, the "friends" supporting them will cause further pain for the girl.

So... All depends on how you view Liu Yao and its uses.

[Gmuli]

Thank you. : )

If a line can only interact with the line it transforms from, or transforms into, then surely it is impossible for Three Way Combinations to happen? 

Why impossible?Original line still interacts, only the resulting line is empowering it instead of interacting with the other lines.

If a line cannot bring itself its own misfortune when it runs counter to the goal that it transforms from, then surely it is impossible to go from a sure win situation to total loser?

I was thinking about that before.

If what you say is the case, the Self and Other line, when observed as the emotional state between the two as well as each others goals and desires, we can be certain that the guy that the girl may have interest in, will have ideas that slowly are at odds with the girl regarding a relationship; because Earth on the Other Line will cause issue for Water on the Self Line; resulting in becoming even furter from each other ideologically in terms of starting and maintaining a succesful relationship.

The running counter for Self and Other, so for Hai running counter to Wei turning to Si.
I'm not sure what is running counter.
Its connected to the Clash, right?
So they run counter to each other because Wei(potentially having arc with Hai, even though controlling it), turns to Si and they are opposite.

But clash can mean they are going fast into each other and that is good for relationship?

Trying to figure out what means to run counter to each other. : )

[The-Monk]

Why impossible?Original line still interacts, only the resulting line is empowering it instead of interacting with the other lines.

A Three Way Combination necessitates the line that it transforms into, into becoming part of the Combination.
If the line it transforms into, can only interact with the the line it transforms from and still complete the Combination, how can it not also interact with other lines?

The running counter for Self and Other, so for Hai running counter to Wei turning to Si.
I'm not sure what is running counter.
Its connected to the Clash, right?
So they run counter to each other because Wei(potentially having arc with Hai, even though controlling it), turns to Si and they are opposite.

Partly Correct.

It is running counter because:
1. If we take Wei Earth alone, and the line it transforms into only interacting witht the Wei Earth and thereby strengthening it, Wei will control Hai Water on the Self Line.
2. If we take the line that a line transforms into as being able to interact with other lines, Si Fire will Clash with Hai Water on the Self Line.

In either case, no matter what, the other party will always prefer not being in a relationship with this girl (represented by the Self Line).

But clash can mean they are going fast into each other and that is good for relationship?

There are many reasons why this is not the case, far too lengthy for me to respond to unfortunately. But the base of it is:

Since the question is asking about an unknown party (because a relationship is not just about looking for something), this unknown party needs to be represented somehow; both their actions and their overall thoughts on a relationship with this girl, otherwise Officer Line will be sufficient for representation. Because of this, the Other Line running counter to the Self Line (that represents the girls ideals as well as being the Focus; with the Officer line sitting on the Self Line), meaning that the Other Line will not represent a "going fast into each other" image from the Clash and Counter, but rather they are repulsed and prefer not to be in the relationship with the girl on the ideological level.

There's more reasons to it all, but it all stems from the listed part above. If this was Ancient China where it was simply a matter of asking the Parents, the reading will look very different then. 

[Gmuli]

A Three Way Combination necessitates the line that it transforms into, into becoming part of the Combination.
If the line it transforms into, can only interact with the the line it transforms from and still complete the Combination, how can it not also interact with other lines?

The rules I worked with suggest we need 3 active lines(day/month branch also work) and we have three way combination.
Do I understand correctly that you are looking at the resulting lines as what is joining the combination?

So for example we have line moving from something to Wei, Day Branch Hai and a line that is moving from something to Mao.
In that case  the Wei resulting line and Day branch will pull the Mao resulting line to form the combination?
Or maybe Mao as central part is pulling the other lines?

Lets say 60 with 1,2 and last changing line moving to 20 yesterday




So here both Wei and Mao are in the resulting lines, so it will pull them to combination if I understand correctly.


But if its a original Mao line moving to Chen for example, there is no combination, as Mao is not the line after it changes, so other line and Day are just potential?Or they form arc maybe like in BaZi?

Lets say same example but without 6th line moving as well, then we have Mao moving, but it isn't resulting line, so it isn't part of the combination?

2. If we take the line that a line transforms into as being able to interact with other lines, Si Fire will Clash with Hai Water on the Self Line.

Yes, but then we get to the Clash when asking for potential boyfriend if Si does interact.
And as its someone she potentially doesn't know, so not a lot of relations already to show on Others, its easy to look at it as the clash showing they are moving toward each other...

I get the Officer line is on Self, so of course, it may not be beneficial, overall, I'm trying to figure out the rules for when Clash is something breaking apart and when its a meeting when there isn't an existing relationship and she ask for a timing of event.

So why Clash isn't beneficial in this case...
Do we just look for other Images, like in this case Officer on Self line, so it isn't in the other party, meaning there can be no relationship as more images show the clash as bad?

If its the Wei controlling Hai, and if we look at the clash we work with the rule that Si will interact, that is fine then the previous state of Wei controling her line shows the idea of countering I guess.

So the idea is that because Wei initially controls her line, also Officer is on her line, then we have enough Images to conclude next Officer/potential boyfriend that shows up won't work out, as she will be holding to Image on her own line and clashing the Other line with that doesn't seem open enough for it to work out?

Trying to clear out the rules for clash here, when its meeting something and when its braking apart.
Thank you. : )

[The-Monk]

The rules I worked with suggest we need 3 active lines(day/month branch also work) and we have three way combination.

That is one such way. There are other ways as well.

Do I understand correctly that you are looking at the resulting lines as what is joining the combination?

Not quite. Amoung the other ways for the Three Way Combination is where "certain" moving lines and their transformed lines form that Combination only, and there are specific reasons for this particular case.

Typically it is lines 1 with 3, or 4 with 6. The reasoning being they each represent Heaven and Earth between each Trigram, and Man with Space or Man with Time in the Hexagram.

And as its someone she potentially doesn't know, so not a lot of relations already to show on Others, its easy to look at it as the clash showing they are moving toward each other...

This could be the case if the Self Line did not already have the Focus sitting in it. A Man who doesn't want to be the Man in your heart (Other Line running counter to the Self Line and the Focus as well), is basically a Man who "very quickly" doesn't want to be the man in your heart, when you factor in the Clash. The key focus is on the Focus, and where it is. Since in either outcomes, the Other Line doesn't like this, then the issue is with the girl. So something else needs to change there first before she can get a relationship, and that is why I said in my original posts on why her ideal needs to be altered, as it can't be that everyone at that point ahead will do a runner, unless if there is something wrong with her expectations.

I hope that explains the other question parts you had, as each part on their own will have taken too long a post to reply to properly.

[Gmuli]

I hope that explains the other question parts you had, as each part on their own will have taken too long a post to reply to properly.I hope that explains the other question parts you had

It does, yes, thank you!

Not quite. Amoung the other ways for the Three Way Combination is where "certain" moving lines and their transformed lines form that Combination only, and there are specific reasons for this particular case.

Typically it is lines 1 with 3, or 4 with 6. The reasoning being they each represent Heaven and Earth between each Trigram, and Man with Space or Man with Time in the Hexagram.

Aha, so I assume its:
5&6:Time
3&4:Man
1&2: Space

Since I have seen Space>Man>Time as Line1>Line2>Line3, so on the whole Hexagram. I haven't used space and time in the whole hexagram a lot, will see if that can help for the meaning of the lines, it seems good.

Then I think I understand... And I assume that lines need to form the combination either in original or in the resulting hexagram and not between them. With day and month,of course. I will try to use that from time to time and see if it works better, thank you.


If/when you have some time if you can explain more on some of the rules you are using, I'm sure many members will find it useful here. I know I will. And we aren't afraid of long posts, we are studying the Five Arts after all.

[JLim (Darma W)]

Just reading this topic of last October...

The topic has been discussed very thoroughly, and I also appreciate The Monk's valuable inputs.

Question: Should I contact him again today and ask him to meet up tomorrow?
The center of the analysis lies on the Fifth line.  Fifth line Others represents the guy.  This line comes together with Zhu Que, which among other things means communication.  Wei overcomes Hai and the changed line Si clashes Hai: these two indicate that their meeting will not come through. 

But she should not have worried, she already had a couple of other guys in mind at the time of asking.

起卦时间：2017年05月12日06时29分
干支：丁酉年　乙巳月　己亥日　丁卯时
旬空：辰巳　　寅卯　　辰巳　　戌亥

六神　 伏神 　　　离宫：火风鼎　　　　　　　　　　巽宫：风天小畜
　　　　　　　　　【本　卦】　　　　　　　　　　　【变　卦】
勾陈　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟己巳火　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母辛卯木　　
朱雀　　　　　　　▅▅　▅▅　子孙己未土　应×→　▅▅▅▅▅　兄弟辛巳火　　
青龙　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　妻财己酉金　　○→　▅▅　▅▅　子孙辛未土　应
玄武　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　妻财辛酉金　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　子孙甲辰土　　
白虎　　　　　　　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼辛亥水　世　　　▅▅▅▅▅　父母甲寅木　　
滕蛇　父母己卯木　▅▅　▅▅　子孙辛丑土　　×→　▅▅▅▅▅　官鬼甲子水　世

[Sacrar]

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[Gmuli]

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[Gmuli]

Hi! : )
I have a question. : )
I'm trying to sort out what parts interact when a line changes together with how lines are linked.
I find some logical problems with what we have covered here, hopefully you can elaborate a little on it.

If a line can only interact with the line it transforms from, or transforms into, then surely it is impossible for Three Way Combinations to happen? 

Good point. However, at the same time, we have this:

http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=736.msg4674#msg4674

The theory proposes, that a line that transforms into a line that is next to the original line it transforms from, may be linked, but only in parituclar questions.

So Three Way combination in the first case acts as normal relation between the lines. They need to interact to form it, fair enough, that suggests that the branches interact. I wish we could expand more on that, but anyway the second case becomes a problem.

If San He is based on normal type of branch interactions, then the 2 lines(1 and 3, 4 and 6) wouldn't be linked, as they aren't next to each other.
Basically one of the rules either should cancel one of the other rules, or we need some way to clearly say that San He combination doesn't follow the normal rules.

[Gmuli]

1. The "Other" Line is important, as a relationship is more than just what you are after. It involves another person as well. Therefore you cannot just look at Officer Lines.

I think this in AKs materials is Gain and Loss method vs Relationship Method.
Basically, 2 lines(will one obtain the other) is Gain and Loss, and 3 Lines(2 for the people and 1 for their relation) for the second.

Problem is we couldn't get Gain and Loss to work. It works at times, then in very clear cases of a person and something they can gain(for example will they find something if they go to specific place) it fails.
In previous quesions of people without knowing it it doesn't seem to be present, either...

I don't know, I have accepted it as either not working well, or not enough info on it in the materials.

The relationship method does seem to work nicely over the years... There are details on it as well, however. For example - at what point the relationship becomes a separate entity and needs its own line.

If a female is asking and she hasn't met the guy, there isn't any relationship at that point. Yet there will be in the future. So should there be a separate line etc.

Of course, if they are in relationship then its easy, but at what point it starts to become separate thing is the issue in that in, my humble view.