Why Doesn't The Bazi Seasons Change For People Born In The Southern Hemisphere?

[Dao]

When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation the baZi Would be:

Jia Jia Jia Jia
Zi Zi Zi Zi

If the year begins in Zi month, this chart is possible. 

Hi All,

Rapanui !!! Thank you...

"The branch names are not usual month names; the main use of the branches for months is astrological. However, the names are sometimes used to indicate historically which (lunar) month was the first month of the year in ancient times. For example, since the Han dynasty, the first month has been jiànyínyuè, but earlier the first month was jiànzǐyuè (during the Zhou dynasty) or jiànchǒuyuè (traditionally during the Shang dynasty) as well."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagenary_cycle

 

[Gmuli]

When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation the baZi Would be:

Jia Jia Jia Jia
Zi Zi Zi Zi

If the year begins in Zi month, this chart is possible. 

Hi All,

Rapanui !!! Thank you...

"The branch names are not usual month names; the main use of the branches for months is astrological. However, the names are sometimes used to indicate historically which (lunar) month was the first month of the year in ancient times. For example, since the Han dynasty, the first month has been jiànyínyuè, but earlier the first month was jiànzǐyuè (during the Zhou dynasty) or jiànchǒuyuè (traditionally during the Shang dynasty) as well."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexagenary_cycle

 

We have our date then!
If we take that the next year will start from Zi month, that would mean we look at Gui/Hai month with the modern calendar(Solar).

And our date is 17 December 1923 at 00:00 hour.
BaZi Is:

Jia Jia Jia  Gui
Zi Zi Zi Hai

Does it fit...
Well, next step is we need the actual relation to fit.

There is A LOT of stuff going on in real life, so will have to check later. If someone wants to check meanwhile will be really helpful.

Again the rule we need is:
When the Jupiter, Moon and Sun conjunct in Zi constellation.

[Dao]

Hi All, continue the puzzle..

(...)"Trigram Gen in Yin Wood of Hetu (河圖)

This is also the basic difference between Chinese ancient book and principle from Viet civilization.

* Trigram Gen in Viet civilization has the original conventional feature of Yin Wood (Has proved in “Back to the origin of I Ching”).

* Trigram Gen in Chinese ancient book, Gen (艮 gèn) has the original feature of “Mountain”. With the principle of Trigram Gen is “Mountain” in Chinese ancient book, it explains nothing. But with Trigram Gen with the original feature of Yin Wood from Viet civilization, we will explain the issue persisted–

The Earth in the interrelationships of the solar system from Yin and Yang theory and Five element theory.

Therefore, from the basic principle of Lac Viet “Later Heaven” Bagua (eight symbols) combining Hetu (河圖), Trigram Gen is in Yin Wood, so how is the relationship between Yin Wood - Gen (艮 gèn) with the Earth in the interrelationships of the solar system?

Now would you reassess the order of the Solar system from inside to outside:

Before explaining this issue, the writer would like to note of the names of two planets in the solar system of Venus and Mercury:

* Mercury is named after contemporary Astronomy, or Venus is called according to the ancient Oriental astronomy book.

* Venus is named after contemporary Astronomy, or Mercury is called according to the ancient Oriental astronomy book (according to Pangu (盤古), Book of Han (漢書).

The order of the following solar system – with two names of these stars named after ancient book - will be:

@ Sun => Venus => Mercury => Earth => Mars.

This is the “Planet system of group I”, according to the categorization of the contemporary Astronomy)

@ The belt of meteorite with hundreds of million of large and small meteorite blocks is also moving around the Sun (The largest block has the length of hundreds of Km).

@ Jupiter => Saturn =>Uranus => Neptune => Pluto.

(Planet system of group II, according to the categorization of the contemporary Astronomy)

If now the Sun is taken as Earth element (According to the principle of center of Earth in Yin and Yang and Five element theory), ta will see one direction of generating Wu Xing from inside to outside – compare with the name of Sun and planets – as follows: Wu Xing (五行): Earth (Sun) => bears Metal (Venus/ According to the ancient book) => carries Water (Mercury/ According to the ancient book) => nourishes Wood (Equivalent to Earth) => feeds Fire (Mars).

In planet of group II, ancient book only mentioned two stars but it is enough to see the overcoming principle is: Jupiter (Wood) parts Earth (Saturn)

Therefore, you can see that the Earth is equivalent to Wood element. According to Yin and Yang theory and Five element theory, when the generating principle is in the Yang, physical object will be in the Yin (the Yin of the Yang). Therefore, the Sun and planets inside the belt of meteorite is in the Yin and our Earth is Yin Wood: That is position of Trigram Gen in Hetu (河圖).

Refer the below picture:


So, according to the above proving, the earth is Yin Wood, the statue of Trigram Gen in Hetu (河圖) and in the direction of generating cycle of the solar system from inside to outside and the sun is in the Earth. With this current structure of the solar hệ thống, this is the perfect explanation of Yin and Yang theory and Five element theory. (...)
http://diendan.lyhocdongphuong.org.vn/chu-de/3560-principle-of-ancient-oriental-astrology-and-the-secret-of-the-universe/

[Gmuli]

Well... Was too interesting not to check haha..

So Sun and Jupiter are in the Zi parts of the sky. Moon will be hours difference, so I'm ok without it.

Sidereal chart for 17 December 1923 0:00:


Tropical chart for 17 december 1923 0:00:

https://i.postimg.cc/cCKH3zhY/conjuction1.png


We are using Zet coz its awesome.
Its not perfect and Moon isn't there yet too, so there is some drifting off, but it is something real at least.

Thanks to everyone that participated, more checking into it when I have some more time.  : )

[Gmuli]

Well... I guess no point figuring out what part of the chart would be Zi, as in here Jupiter and Sun are in the lowest middle part, where Zi is in Lo Shu.
And both so close together on that day in that part of the chart can't be a coincidence, so I think we can accept this was what the year pillar was originally based on.

However, if we look at it carefully we can see they aren't on top of each other. Jupiter has drifted way off almost moved to where would be Gen Trigram in later heaven...

I would guess that is either because the sidereal period of Jupiter is less then 12 years as already mention(exact number is Jupiter: 11.86177556 from here btw: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/mean_conjunctions.html, although it seems unlikely as it would drift much, much more if it was that)
Or because they actually did use tropical view and didn't account for the precession. We use fixed degrees to align both charts now, so it doesn't look like a big difference, but its a lot for 4 thousand years and would it would need very different corrections.

In any case, Jupiter seems to be drifting away, Moon doesn't fit perfectly too.
Still too close, to be a coincidence thousand of years after the calendar started...

So I would think of it that way. First possible development. They did made it based on that. However, they didn't knew enough to made it accurate enough to be able to continue for so long. Second possible development. They made it based on something too complicated to explain at the time(much like QMDJ or ZWDS), and presented this so its more widely accepted. Then just align a date to a conjunction that they knew was going to drift off, while the calendar itself calculated something else behind it that wouldn't.

I like second one more.
So at the same time somewhere behind it all there is some 12 /10 year relation that fits perfectly to what is calculated. Be that sunspot activity or whatever, someday we will find out I believe. But it can't be this, this is already drifting of in both sidereal and tropical way of viewing it.


I do believe we will find out with time, though. I've worked with many systems that use random info, they can never be so accurate. So there is another reason behind it all and as I said I can believe in the idea that maybe the people that created the calendar knew, while they presented it for astronomy relation for everyone else and made it start from there so it fits at first glance.
So while fixing the relation to something else, they could have said Jupiter <>Sun <> Moon was the reason and was actually aligning it to something much more primal and important that we currently may not know(though I can guess, but much, much more testing will be needed in the future in very different fields).


Anyway, thanks to everyone this was useful in many ways.

And I know a lot of its parts we "agreed to disagreed" with, much like the month branch inversion. But its all good, it was interesting and useful topic in my view. : )

[Dao]

Hi All,

Thank you Gmuli for your researches, maybe TenVirtues and Rapanui will help again to clarify..

Article written by Danny H.Van den Berghe: The Chinese Calendar
"The Chinese calendar is based on planetary cycles in our solar system.
You can also download the PDF here:
https://fourpillars.net/pdf/chincal.pdf
https://fourpillars.net/chincal.php

North Pole, Big Dipper, Equatorial, Sun and Moon conjunction to begin the lunar months, Planets, Chinese Constellations, seem to be used in ancient China...

[Rapanui]

Hi,

did you consider WHY Zi month is the first month?
I see as the first cause the number for EB Zi is 1 and this is the first EB!

[Gmuli]

Hi,

did you consider WHY Zi month is the first month?
I see as the first cause the number for EB Zi is 1 and this is the first EB!

True, although it may play some role that the day in both calendars changes at Zi as well.
And of course, Zi is both the the time when Yin has reached its peak and the old flows are being let go of and also the time when new Yang(we can call it impulse from the Source, or whatever we want) is starting to be born that will expand and later contract for the new year.

So in a way the Yang that will expand in the coming year(and later contract) is born at this point, as well the time when the old impulse will die.

However, Yin Tiger is the time when that is manifesting in the world around us(as during the water months its still a process deep within, like a tree without leafs, there are immense renewal taking place from its roots, but the world won't see it, more often).

Both have some logic depending what we are viewing in my view(Zi and Yin). I'm happy with Yin for the year change and Zi for the day change, makes sense in my view, as we can see the Spring signs in Yin, while at time of Yin in the day we really can't.
But if we want to understand what they were thinking we need to use their framework. So Zi as first month in this case.

[Gmuli]

Hi All,

Thank you Gmuli for your researches, maybe TenVirtues and Rapanui will help again to clarify..

Article written by Danny H.Van den Berghe: The Chinese Calendar
"The Chinese calendar is based on planetary cycles in our solar system.
You can also download the PDF here:
https://fourpillars.net/pdf/chincal.pdf
https://fourpillars.net/chincal.php

North Pole, Big Dipper, Equatorial, Sun and Moon conjunction to begin the lunar months, Planets, Chinese Constellations, seem to be used in ancient China...

Its good he is curious and tried looking for that, but the whole article is not very thought through in my humble opinion.
Neptune and Uranus has conjunction every 168 years. He is basing everything on the idea its 3600. It just isn't. If we think the idea is that every 3600 years it will be at the same place that isn't accurate either, more info below.

The whole key to the Chinese calendar is in the Neptune-Uranus conjunction, because every 3600 years
these planets come back to form a new conjunction almost in the same place as 3600 years before. This
is clear from the second chart which shows the start of the 2nd Epoch in 964: 

Sounds good, but at 4564 they aren't anywhere near each other this time around. So the provided info isn't fully checked.



Here could be tempting to say "ohh, but if Jupier and Uranus are so near and we looked at them before...", but no, they are away from each other at previous revolution at 964 and starting of the current Epoch.


Anyway, somewhat interested attempt to find a relation, but the info is all around the place and too inaccurate to really be worth going into too much.
Its not a critic though, happens to everyone, just means we may need some other point of view, if we hope to find out the relation for the epoch. And that one is fine to have drifting off, as we aren't using it practically in the Arts as far as I'm aware. : )

[Dao]

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[Dao]

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[Gmuli]

Well... We did comment on the Jupiter/Year Pillar relation, but indeed there are some differences here. One is that there is some understanding the period isn't exactly 12 years.

Two sets of terms were used, one an astronomical set of terms for the positions of the real Jupiter, and a further set of "astrological" terms for the positions of the imaginary planet.

Fair enough. its not what I'm looking to find, but it is interesting to know. : )
Other then that The Monk seems to have been closer, but in my view, there is always connection, just sometimes it much harder to find(we may have to go to cycles of rotation of different geometric forms in the lightbody etc.).

[Milla]

I think it doesn't really matter.  Two versions have the right to exist.
It as in QMDJ it is possible to build the map on time and the place of the Master or on time and the place of the one who asks a question.

[Gmuli]

I think it doesn't really matter.  Two versions have the right to exist.
It as in QMDJ it is possible to build the map on time and the place of the Master or on time and the place of the one who asks a question.

Well... If you mean 2 Jupiters, of course.
ZWDS is based on that, all stars there are virtual and works very well.

No problem with virtual stars, I'm just wondering if they are pointing to something that we use in other systems and know from elsewhere. As in my experience its usually the case. And I can give countless examples, from Lo Shu and its path, being viewed as the "Earth Magic Square" many, many years back, long before we knew anything about the Five Arts in the west, to the Kabbalistic Tree of Life in old Five Arts texts, and modern acupuncture ones having nothing to do with Kabbalah, and countless others...

At the end if something resonates with all it will exist in most systems. Even the simple idea of 6th line not changing when following Ti/Yong movement through the Palaces, that is looked in much depth in Kabbalah as the 3 highest Sephirot can never be reached, but not because we fall down, but because the Tree expands when it seems we will get to them. That suggest that before Wondering Spirit there is immense inner change that happens, that in Kabbalah would be opening of a new Tree of Life in us, however as the Yi Jing follows the other relations that has been missed.
So again - same paths, same movements, just a very different point of view, but the reality behind is still the same, as that is where all of these has been seen and taken from.

So my idea is that in my experience its always same flow behind it all. Just takes time and sometimes knowledge/experience to be able to connect it all. And for this specific case, when it comes to most of the Five Arts I guess I'm not there yet. But it will work with time. It always does. : )

Anyway, my idea was - no problem with virtual stars. However, the fact we can't see them when we look at the sky, doesn't mean they don't exist anywhere, outside of the paper.

[Gmuli]

Question:

If I replace Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water, with Sour, Bitter, Sweet, Pungent and Salty; in short, the Five Elements with Five Tastes instead.

Would you still need to change the Seasons to match?

I don't think the tastes fit very well. The colors of the foods either. White foods are metal, in theory, great, but when we have so many exceptions, because of taste or other factors, then it isn't a rule, its just trying to use a system on a framework that doesn't really fit into it.

So no, at their practical use doesn't seem to fit very well to reality and it seems just approximation, so a familiar division can be used somewhere else, it wouldn't be needed. Just my view, of course and I don't know a lot about the practical aspect of the five elements in food.

I've been asking a lot lately, as usual. And I was trying to see if the tastes work. It seems they do, very well, with WWG as well.
So fair to make a correction here - didn't see their relevance before, but they do work. : )