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Offline DiegoFS

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RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« on: September 28, 2020, 04:01:37 PM »
Without wishing to change the BāZì 八字  Body of Doctrine of Astrology and much less of the Traditional School (particularizing the original guidelines of Master Shén Xiào Zhān 沈孝瞻 [author of the Book Zi Ping Zhen Quan 子平真詮 (ZPZQ) Genuine and Bright Explanatory Notes, last Classic dating from the Qing Dynasty 清 (1,644-1,912)] and of which I am a faithful follower); however, if I wanted to re-evaluate some dictions that in my opinion are outdated and that belong to a language of the past. Like everything in life, we must modernize the terminology using a more Universal, International and Generic turn if the meaning is allowed.

For example, it does not seem appropriate to me to use the word: “Remedy”, an expression that was widely used by Master and Physician Zhang Nan [the author of the Work Shénfēng Tōng Kǎo 神 峰通考 (SFTK) Shénfēng Passing Exam] and also stood out as an Officer of the Imperial Court in Ming Dynasty times (明 1,368-1,644), to emphasize the targeting of the Minister Star (Xiāng Shén 相神), whose purpose is to correct anomalies in a Natal Chart. Here it is better to sound out the word: "Antidote", "Medicine" or even "Vaccine", if you want to antagonize any negative Qi of the Natal Chart.

It is quite common to find the diction: God. This locution should be omitted as much as possible and hopefully suppressed. I understand that within the ancient Chinese philosophy (either by the Taoist or the Buddhist route, I am a follower of the first, but I deeply respect the second) the polytheistic context is quite ingrained. But, as monotheistic religions predominate in the West today, the term God, denoting the expression of mathematical points of energy within the Four Pillars, sounds shocking. Nor would it be positive if we are branded as heretics or witches, because this is not the case and even more so, that we end up being persecuted (via online) and exterminated in the long term as happened during the Medieval Holy Inquisition (although it sounds like something exaggerated). That is why it is better to go to the word: "Agent" (some will point to applying the term Star (Xīng 星) but in order not to confuse them with Composite or Symbolic Stars [Shén Shā神煞] or with Auxiliary, it seems to me that "Agent" sounds more differentiating and endowment we assign common sense).

Thus, instead of saying the ten gods, it is better to notify: the Ten Agents of Transformation (Zhuǎnhuà Jì 转化 剂). Instead of suggesting: “Useful God” (Yòng Shén 用神 or Command of the Month) it is more logical to affirm it as “Useful Agent” 用神. And one of the most common concepts is referring to Eating God (食神) to justify Agent Shí Shén 食神. Here it is more convenient to extrapolate it to the expression: Nutrition Factor (Shí Shén 食神), which sounds more coherent.  Eating God or Eating God or God of Food when quoting it in the West is perceived as a complete and total nonsense, a incoherence. I want to emphasize to the community of followers and forum members that we please join forces in modernizing the lexicon, making it more consistent and globalized, in line with the 21st century. In addition, the idea is to exalt, perpetuate and give all the notoriety to this Sacred Ancestral Wisdom that deserves it due to its excessive merits.

In short, we should say: Agent Owl (Shí Dào Shí 食倒食) and not God Owl, etcetera. Indirect Wealth Agent (Piān Cái 偏财), Wounded Official Agent (Shāng Guān 伤官) and so on.

Another idea that I want to discuss is the use of the “Long Cycle of Luck” [Yuàn Zhǎng 院長] that is usually contracted as LP, alluding to the 10 years that each of the fragments of the life horizon cover. I understand that in ancient times it was adopted on a daily basis within Imperial China. I am going to ask you to become familiar and apply the term: “Deanery” (Yuàn Zhǎng 院長), which sums up that extensive Ten-Year Period (Dà Yùn 大运). From my humble opinion "Luck" in the strict existential sense is not valid, it does not exist. I do not agree with saying "I have bad luck" or someone has "good luck". Both the one expression and the other reflect ignorance, since they are effects and consequences of deficiencies and obstacles (Karmas), or on the contrary, very positive and superlative events (Dharmas) that emanate from the evil or good actions of the past lives of any consultant. They are not the lottery of fate (Mìng Xué 命學). Our life from the moment of birth is already predestined and there are few events that we can redirect. Although it is true that with the applications and tools of the BāZì, the Fēng Shuǐ, the 8 Mystic Gates, the Yì Jīng, etc., and even with a more spiritual life (Qi Gong, Tai Chi, Internal Alchemy ...), we can empower some segments of existence.

It is worth clarifying that the word "Deanery" is usually used very regularly in Western Chaldean Astrology, but to define ten degrees of any of the 12 Zodiacal Houses. Here in the BāZì, the application would be different, that is, pointing out the Energy (Qi 齊) that prevails during the Long 10-Year Cycle, and that overlaps with the Annual, Monthly and Daily Cycle.

To conclude, and going back to the beginning of this article, I am going to succinctly expose some of my views about the Doctrine of the Four Pillars (Sìzhù 四柱) that in my opinion are wrong in their applicability (naturally I respect opinions contrary and the other Schools). The Masters: Xú Lè Wú (徐樂吾) and also the aforementioned Zhang Nan each deliberately distorted the Original Postulates of the Eight Character Astrology (BāZì 八字) in their time, emphasizing the primordial use of the Force (Yǒulì 有力) of the Day Master (Jiàoshī Jié 教師 節) at the expense of the Season (Jìjié 季节) Energetic

Such Force (Yǒulì 有力) although it is analyzed is fit how Secondary within the Analysis. Since the Core of the Graphic or the Gate of Qi is perpetuated in the Useful Agent (Shén Shen 神神). If the Force (Yǒulì 有力) is taken as the main action or the Central Axis of the Natal Chart, a precise diagnosis is not obtained and the deep essence of BaZi is lost. The Force (Yǒulì 有力) derives as a function of the Yòng Shén 用 神 and not the other way around. At the expense of this criterion, the concept of the Focal Point or Key Factor (Tígāng 提纲) arises and the configuration of the Equation of Destiny (Kàn Mìng Kǒujué 看 命 口诀) gravitates on such coordinates.


Gmuli

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2020, 05:38:06 PM »
Hi and welcome.
I don't write a lot lately, but I think this part I can comment on a little. : )

Quote
It is quite common to find the diction: God. This locution should be omitted as much as possible and hopefully suppressed. I understand that within the ancient Chinese philosophy (either by the Taoist or the Buddhist route, I am a follower of the first, but I deeply respect the second) the polytheistic context is quite ingrained. But, as monotheistic religions predominate in the West today, the term God, denoting the expression of mathematical points of energy within the Four Pillars, sounds shocking. Nor would it be positive if we are branded as heretics or witches, because this is not the case and even more so, that we end up being persecuted (via online) and exterminated in the long term as happened during the Medieval Holy Inquisition (although it sounds like something exaggerated). That is why it is better to go to the word: "Agent" (some will point to applying the term Star (Xīng 星) but in order not to confuse them with Composite or Symbolic Stars [Shén Shā神煞] or with Auxiliary, it seems to me that "Agent" sounds more differentiating and endowment we assign common sense).


I do understand what you mean I think.
But , of course, that would depend on the word. And in our case this is the shen神.

If we view what shen神 of the heart心 seems to have meant in the past(and I like to think it still means today, at least somewhat) the meaning would be much closer to something that perceives, while there is the idea of a specific relation or function, it can perceive relation or function, but it is the perceiving through the heart itself, more then it is what is perceived.

Is god a good word for it...
That would depend on the definition of god we use, yet the concept of the heart as perceiving, in its essence can be seen in many other countries.
From the poetic native american concept of "chante ishta"(the "only eye of the heart" in lakota), to the much more modern one "listen to your heart" that exists even in Bulgarian...

Yet we all know what that means.
So are the 10 shen神  more closer to a god or to an agent...
If we view them as 10 points of perceiving, 10 different influences, ways our heart can relate to our world, then one can argue that depending on how we define "god" it would be much closer to it, then most other words. Agents have a function, its popular term for the 5 elements/phases as well, yet the meaning and essence I'm not sure exists there.


I'm personally big fan of the approach where some parts of the terminology just isn't  translated at all. As there is no single word that can bring the meaning, while the meaning is very much essential to get part of the systems.

In this sense the shen神 is connected to perceiving and to the heart心 and that start to seem universal, or at least understood in many unconnected places around the world. And it goes beyond the mechanical view of influences, they do seem to play a part in that, but there is more.
Agent is mechanical, god may have many other connotations and meanings, yet for many people all around the world its the closest to their heart and perceiving through it they will get.

And of course, as its connected to fire, we can also say that this point of perceiving from the heart, will be related to wherever the fire is in a chart, at least somewhat(as other influences can change stuff, as it always/often is).


Offline DiegoFS

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2020, 06:49:11 PM »
Gmuli, greetings. I simply cite it because in the West Christian religions predominate, and they are the majority. The term God is untouchable, unless it is used for your prayers.

It is not my intention that the text be misinterpreted. Chinese Astrology is perfect in its intention to forecast personal destiny. There is no discussion there.

But so that one thing does not collide with the other, it is better to use the term Agent which is more Neutral, if I may use the term.

And it would be a way for BaZi to fall more among the common people. If more generic and international words are used in this globalized world, the Astrology of the 4 Pillars would acquire more status ...

A very different thing is the Asian Culture and another very different the Culture of the West. We must try to establish common bridges and so everyone is happy ...

Gmuli

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2020, 07:17:23 PM »
Gmuli, greetings. I simply cite it because in the West Christian religions predominate, and they are the majority. The term God is untouchable, unless it is used for your prayers.

It is not my intention that the text be misinterpreted. Chinese Astrology is perfect in its intention to forecast personal destiny. There is no discussion there.

But so that one thing does not collide with the other, it is better to use the term Agent which is more Neutral, if I may use the term.

And it would be a way for BaZi to fall more among the common people. If more generic and international words are used in this globalized world, the Astrology of the 4 Pillars would acquire more status ...

A very different thing is the Asian Culture and another very different the Culture of the West. We must try to establish common bridges and so everyone is happy ...

I do agree with the general idea. : )

Offline Tientai ✝️

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2020, 07:18:05 PM »
I agree with @Gmuli  ...
We must hold the old traditional word of Shen .. !!
There are many cultures that agree with the old naming ..
Daoist priests and Qi gong masters are mostly familiar with old meaning "Spirit - God  "
..

Offline Charles

Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2020, 07:32:04 PM »
Hi all,

appreciated that diegofs is trying to attain a positive than a negative for the connotation of the word gods for shen神 persistently in CM world.

as am overseas chinese, having mahayan, theravada and christian relatives and even chinese relatives in few parts of china today, am sure the majority of1.5 B people brought up under CCP ideology are NOT going to "view what shen神 of the heart心 seems to have meant in the past(and I like to think it still means today, at least somewhat) ". This is Not going to happen as they would have a "certain" first impression or instilled perception for the meaning of such words in today's context.

as for diegofs " in the West Christian religions predominate, and they are the majority. The term God is untouchable, unless it is used for your prayers",
funnily the same would applies to CCP China today, if you have relatives in the high rung of the party, the social usage and practice of the term is also seem taboo as it would be seen that you are superstitious and not for current modern dogma, need more clocked time for ideology classes perhaps (do you know government servants have to periodically attend such classes every few years, as part of "continuing education points" especially those who had been to overseas - do read between the lines)?

On the other hand, imagined the mahayana buddhist or Taoist buddhist who already have their pantheon of Gods and bodhisattvas; and now to have CM gods into the everyday vocabulary, is also going to be seen as veering off to the path of Shintoist/animist japanese deities path i.e. god of golf, god of <named hobbies> etc...

So for east and west would have certain misaligned connotations. Just because of its essence to practitioners and its inbred familiarity for years, and the perceived manner of having an impactful influence or governance in CM usage, i believe like diegofs; there's likely to be more negative than positive perception to CM shen神 .

Can one really say Bazi, ZiWei or feng shui are non-religious, no-worship of deities and yet there's the word shen神 usage in CM vocabulary ?
Chinese Metaphysics is supposedly under the category of Chinese Philosophy umbrella but how does that convince outsiders or what's the first impression given if such words with potential negative connotations are used ?

Can't comment much about the "remedy", "antidote", "vaccine" bit but i would love to hear TCM practitioner sharing their feelings on the word connotation for someone that practice TCM but not practising CM.

Just thinking aloud and my 2 cents, no offense intended, more pun instead as am newbie here. We need to adapt with the times and sometimes past translation may be erroneous.

Cheers

Offline DiegoFS

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2020, 11:33:14 PM »
Well, so that we are all satisfied, it would be better to segment the consultants. For net Asians: the classic terminology is perfect. But for Westerners, if the terms need to be adjusted, trust me. I am Latin American and I know the terrain, there is a lot of religious fanaticism here, perhaps not like the fundamentalist Muslims (who are worse - I apologize if a Muslim reads it). So when you write God, put the word Agent next to it in parentheses. Here they enter because all kinds of people and from the whole world enter this page. If you say: God of Food, for a person from America, it sounds like an insult to the Creator of the Universe. Here it is conceived that God is one and cannot have "rivals of any kind". I could not say anything about Europe, but since the Vatican is there, it is better to take precautions for the sake of BaZi marketing. Perhaps for most Asians this produces laughter, but here it is quite the opposite, especially for ordinary citizens.

Offline Charles

Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2020, 02:23:00 AM »
In Taipei, some books that are translated, had chose to use the term "Spirit/s". So it would be Ten Spirits  ;)

Don't think you would see "Agents" for a very long time, in any official translation that originate in countries which uses Chinese language for now.

Think, personally i can accept Spirits for now instead of Gods  ;D

Offline Charles

Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2020, 02:44:32 AM »
Hi all,

Would like to ask some feedback from experienced practitioners, enthusiasts and masters here in this forum; on whether Bazi should continue with the term Qi Sha "7 Killing (7K, 七杀)" or replaced it with original term in our daily usage ?

i) Firstly, in some school of bazis, it does not carry a positive connotation, sort of bad to have
ii) Secondly, in some cases, this star can even be auspicious i.e. Sha Yin Xiang Shen (杀印相生)
iii) Thirdly, this term is relatively new in Bazi; original words used was Pian Guan 偏官 (not sure what is the most apt English word for this "Officer").
Qi Sha was more commonly found in Zi Wei Dou Shu (Purple Star Astrology) and Qi Men Dun Jia.

@DiegoFS , i see you like to use Qi Sha (7K, 七杀) a lot in your writing and also your posting in this forum; could you share, for any particular reasons for this incongruence choice; since you had espoused dropping Ten "Gods" to carry positive connotation and general world wide acceptance ?

"Penny for everyone thoughts" - an English idiom to meant Appreciated your generous sharing.

Cheers
 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2020, 03:05:34 AM by Charles »

Offline DiegoFS

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2020, 06:41:04 AM »
Charles, greetings and thank you very much for your interesting dialectical contributions.

Well, the idea of using Spirit instead of God, it could be. Although here, seen in the West, it generates certain doubts. I'm not totally sure. It sounds a bit strange.

And as for 7K, it would be good to hear proposals. Personally, it's not that I like it, nor do I dislike it. What happens, Charles, is that it is very difficult to find a precise term. I imagine that it was adopted taking into account that 7K tends to subject it to one, although as you mentioned it does not always happen, and sometimes it is even positive.

It would be good to find a less threatening term for it. To a person who does not know much about BaZi, they would think that this energy is going to kill and crush them (laughs  ;D ;D ;D) ... There it would be good if we tried to make a consensus or a majority vote to define whether to leave the term 7K as it is usually used or change it for a more adequate concept.

Offline DiegoFS

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2020, 07:21:25 AM »
Charles, analyzing the term Spirit a bit, could be better and instead of opting for Ten Gods of Transformation (very Eastern), or Ten Agents of Transformation (very Western), it would be better to use: Ten Energies of Transformation, that is, Energy like Qi, it is a more "neutral" and Universal term.

If it is said: the Direct Wealth Energy, or the Energy of the Seal, it makes a more logical sense, at least to me. I don't know what your position is and that of the other Forists.

Online JLim (Darma W)

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2020, 04:33:42 PM »
Hi Charles,
i) Firstly, in some school of bazis, it does not carry a positive connotation, sort of bad to have
That's right.  Similar to the term Rob Wealth (劫財) which can also be good or bad.
Quote
ii) Secondly, in some cases, this star can even be auspicious i.e. Sha Yin Xiang Shen (杀印相生)
yes, that's one way when it can be auspicious.
Quote
iii) Thirdly, this term is relatively new in Bazi; original words used was Pian Guan 偏官 (not sure what is the most apt English word for this "Officer").
One of my Bazi teachers used the English term "Unbecoming Officer".  I think some others also translate it to "Indirect Officer".

I personally would not mind using the term 七杀 Qi Sha or Seven Killings (the direct translation in English).  One must understand that the interpretation of a Bazi chart goes beyond the terminology.
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Online JLim (Darma W)

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Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2020, 04:38:45 PM »
I would like to ask about another Ten Spirit/God term.  Why is 印 Yin translated as Resource in so much English-language Bazi literature? The meaning of 印 Yin is seal, isn't it.  I don't understand how Yin can be translated to "resource"!

There are two practitioners that use the term "Seal" in describing this Ten Spirits: our fellow forumer @trey and myself.  Honestly, my usage of "Seal" was directly adopted from trey's usage. In Bazi chart interpretation, for example in the Mangpai school, Seal (when it's positive) can mean getting a promotion or ranking in your career.  Seal (when it's positive) can also mean successful scholarship (like a seal on your diploma).
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Online tyc

Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2020, 07:00:16 PM »
How about using the term "support" in substituting for resource or seal?

Offline ren

Re: RE-EVALUATION OF SOME TERMS OF THE CHINESE BAZI ASTROLOGY:
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2020, 07:13:03 PM »
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