Quiz 26- Divination on Father's illness

[Tientai ✝️]

Dear Liu yao members..hi
Learning continues ..!!!
This example doesn't use 6 Animals ..


Try to evaluate your knowledge by deciphering on this Case ....
After some time I will give the answer from Wild Crane's Old man book ...

[Phoenix]

hi..
i would make 1st try... hope you all don't mind...

zi offspring (= medicine) is strong by day
wu officer (= illness) moves to wei . fire --> earth, fire is weakened.
result line support subject.

i think by medicine, illness is lessen and father might be healthier.

[Tientai ✝️]

hi..
i would make 1st try... hope you all don't mind...

zi offspring (= medicine) is strong by day
wu officer (= illness) moves to wei . fire --> earth, fire is weakened.
result line support subject.

i think by medicine, illness is lessen and father might be healthier.

hi ..@Phoenix ...
you are in good road ..
for help i add " father’s illness how serious is , and when [which day ] see healing ? "

thanks for participation
tt.

[Phoenix]

hi ..@Phoenix ...
you are in good road ..
for help i add " father’s illness how serious is , and when [which day ] see healing ? "

thanks for participation
tt.

hi senior Tientai,

probably in Zi day? Zi clash Wu to move into Wei.

tyvm

[Tientai ✝️]

ANSWER ...
占者問曰：「此卦係六沖，近病逢沖即癒，予父之病甚重，君看癒于何日？」
The Person made divination asked : this hexagram is a liu chong hexagram, this recent illness has the chance to meet with chong so reaching the heal, my father’s illness how serious is , and when [which day ] see healing ?
予曰：
Old crane said:
辰土、戌土、未土，三重父母爻，當擇其旺者用之。
Chen earth, xu earth, wei earth, are 3 clashes [chong ] on fathers line, just select what is in flourishing [wang ] as useful one.
今辰土父母臨月建，即用辰土為用神。
Currently Chen earth Parent has Month foundation, and is useful as to be the Yongshen.
目下病重者，乃因申日沖寅木而暗動，木動以剋辰土之故也。
Today he is serious ill, wanting to explain the reason this day clash Yin wood causing secretly to move,  this happen to hurt Chen earth [ke ] .
彼曰：
Someone else said:
「卦中午火發動，寅木雖則暗動，反生午火而生土，
In the hexagram there is a Wu fire moving line, even if Yin wood secretly to move,wu fire can produce chen earth.
卜書云：『忌神與元神同動，得兩生也。』
In divination book is written : [ when both Jishen [Jealous God ] and Yuanshen are moving , Obtain dual  production.]
今止曰寅木剋辰土，不曰午火生辰土，何也？」
currently only you say that yin wood hurt [ke ] chen earth, but not say what [happen ] when wu fire produce chen earth ?
予曰：
Old crane said:
午火雖動，化出未土，午與未合，午火貪合不生辰土，
Wu fire although moving , and changing wei earth , Wu and Wei form alliance [liu he ], so Wu fire is [currently ] bound and dont allow to produce chen earth .
所以此辰土單受寅木之剋，不得午火之生，故此病體沈重耳。
therefore this chen earth only accept yin wood beat [ke ], and not allowing wu fire to produce it, therefore illness formation [currently ] is serious to handle on.
須待丑日沖去未土，而午火無合可貪，午火生土，其災退矣。
Must wait when Chou earth come to clash with Wei earth, and break this alliance Wu - Wei, then Wu fire can produce earth , so this disaster will decline.
果於丑日起床。
indeed at Chou day he getting out of bed.

[JLim (Darma W)]

Hi Tientai, interesting case study!

Someone else said:
「卦中午火發動，寅木雖則暗動，反生午火而生土，
In the hexagram there is a Wu fire moving line, even if Yin wood secretly to move,wu fire can produce chen earth.

No, I'm afraid I do not agree with this.  The Second line 寅Yin Wood is too weak to secretly move or 暗動 (hidden movement).  Not moving actually is auspicious, because Yin Wood is Ji Shen (Annoying God) for Parent line.  It means parent's illness is not very serious.

But I do agree with their explanation of Chou Day.

[JLim (Darma W)]

hi senior Tientai,

probably in Zi day? Zi clash Wu to move into Wei.

Hi @Phoenix, the idea about clashing to move is a good one, and the principle 合處逢冲 is applicable (literally "meet clash when there is a combination"). But Zi is also the Hostile God for the Parent Star. 

Chou also clashes to move, but it's not hostile for the Parent Star.  That's why Chou Day was auspicious for the parent.

Clashing to move is also a principle that is used in Bazi.

[Tientai ✝️]

Master@JLim .. hi

hi senior Tientai,

probably in Zi day? Zi clash Wu to move into Wei.

Hi @Phoenix, the idea about clashing to move is a good one, and the principle 合處逢冲 is applicable (literally "meet clash when there is a combination"). But Zi is also the Hostile God for the Parent Star. 

Chou also clashes to move, but it's not hostile for the Parent Star.  That's why Chou Day was auspicious for the parent.

Clashing to move is also a principle that is used in Bazi.

Thanks for this good explanation ..
Now is clear out why choosing Chou and not zi .. is good and refined analysis..
Grateful
Tt.

[fengshuiplus168]

Today he is serious ill, wanting to explain the reason this day clash Yin wood causing secretly to move,  this happen to hurt Chen earth

 
i have question why yin wood can be secretly to move. yin wood is no power.  coz can not get generate from month branch or moving line branch 

[The-Monk]

Today he is serious ill, wanting to explain the reason this day clash Yin wood causing secretly to move,  this happen to hurt Chen earth

 
i have question why yin wood can be secretly to move. yin wood is no power.  coz can not get generate from month branch or moving line branch

I'm afraid you're many months too late to join in on this one, as the OP is no longer with us.

As for why Yin Wood can be Secretly able to Move (Hidden Movement), in certain school thoughts, the end to the Season still carries some of the Five Elements strength within it, and thus, as the month of Chen, still part of the point of Spring, could be considered to be in a healthy state. And thus a Clash/Strike would cause it to become Hidden Movement.

Then there is also the possibility that Yin and Mao are Void/Empty, meaning a Clash would provide such a line with the Void/Empty state to become "prominent" (after becoming Solid from the Clash/Strike), akin to meaning something is about to take place after something that was not there/not interested has had its interest piqued after a stimulus of some kind (from the Clash/Strike).

However, as even OP is not the original author, it would be difficult to determine whether there was any transcribing errors, or whether there was more meanings behind it (such as combining the above two points, or even more). If OP had any thoughts or revelations about this topic, I'm afraid it is impossible to obtain them now.

If you have any questions, it'll probably be better to ask anew in your own thread. As this thread was already old before OP departed.

[fengshuiplus168]

ask for some question:
For ask about illness if  yong shen is power that mean disease will grow up. if  yong shen is no power that mean disease will gone.  That is correct or not 

thank you

[Johan Hausen Purple Cloud]

hi senior Tientai,

probably in Zi day? Zi clash Wu to move into Wei.

Hi @Phoenix, the idea about clashing to move is a good one, and the principle 合處逢冲 is applicable (literally "meet clash when there is a combination"). But Zi is also the Hostile God for the Parent Star. 

Chou also clashes to move, but it's not hostile for the Parent Star.  That's why Chou Day was auspicious for the parent.

Clashing to move is also a principle that is used in Bazi.

In my books a clash does not mean the line is getting stronger but weakened (like a strong person exerting force to hold back a weaker one even that holding the upper hand), so chou clashing would weaken it in overall strength,... still agree on the reading. Of course a chou day is better for the parent line than a zi day, but clashing to break the meeting is equally applied. But one could also argue that for the earth the day phaseal strength (12 stages) does not apply. I would still say zi and chou are both valid.

[Johan Hausen Purple Cloud]

ask for some question:
For ask about illness if  yong shen is power that mean disease will grow up. if  yong shen is no power that mean disease will gone.  That is correct or not 

thank you

That is incorrect, the yongshen here is the parent because the illness is the father's, so soil/earth you want strong and  wood you want weak (jishen). I have seen systems (also ancient cases) where the ghost and child are the functional spirits.

Johan

[Johan Hausen Purple Cloud]

"目下病重者，乃因申日沖寅木而暗動，木動以剋辰土之故也。
Today he is serious ill, wanting to explain the reason this day clash Yin wood causing secretly to move,  this happen to hurt Chen earth [ke ] ."


The reason why I am not very happy with this reading is that the illness is said to be serious yet wood is weak on all accounts. Still a good learning experience.

Johan

[duesouth]

Hi all,

FYI. My translation of the case study using the 1691AD version of Zengshan Buyi (ZSBY) (see ZSBY-3 pdf in https://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=1985.0):

[Ex.9-10. H/H to X/H]
卽於辰月戊申日占父近病得乾爲天變風天小畜
Example: On Chen month, Wu Shen day. Divining about father recent illness. Obtained Qian as Heaven [H/H], transforming to Wind-Heaven Small Livestock [X/H].


父母 戌土 丶世
兄弟 申金 丶
官鬼 午火 ○   父母 未土
父母 辰土 丶應
妻財 寅木 丶
子孫 子水 丶

Qian as Heaven [H/H] Wind-Heaven Small Livestock [X/H]
Father-Mother Xu earth 丶 Subject Wife-Wealth Mao wood 丶
Brother-Sister Shen metal 丶 Officer-Ghost Si fire 丶
Officer-Ghost Wu(h) fire ○ Father-Mother Wei earth 丶丶
Father-Mother Chen earth 丶 Object   Father-Mother   Chen earth 丶
Wife-Wealth Yin(t) wood 丶 Wife-Wealth Yin(t) wood 丶
Son-Daughter Zi water 丶 Son-Daughter Zi water 丶

一人持此卦而問予曰。近病逢沖卽愈。此卦乃係六沖。但予父病之甚重。爾看愈於何日。
A man with this gua asked me: Recent illness meeting clash [means] prompt recovery. This gua is a Six Clash. Now my father illness is very serious. Do you see which day he will recover?

予曰。此卦辰土。未土戌土。三重父母爻。當擇其旺者而用之。今辰土父母臨月建。卽用辰土爲用神。目下病重者。乃因申日。沖寅木而暗動。木動以剋辰土。
I said: This gua Chen earth, Wei earth and Xu earth are three Father-Mother lines. Should select the prosperous one as Useful [God]. Now, Chen earth Father-Mother is at Month Builder, so take Chen earth as Useful God. At present, illness is serious, because Shen day clashes Yin(t) wood [for the latter] to be Secretly Moving. Wood moving to counter Chen earth [causing illness].

彼問曰。卦中午火發動。寅木雖則暗動。反生午火而生土。卜書云。忌神與元神同動。得兩生也。今止曰寅木剋辰土。不曰午火生辰土。何也
He said: Gua Wu(h) fire is moving. Yin(t) wood although Secretly Moving, contrarily produces Wu(h) fire which produces earth. Divination books say: When Fearful God and Source God together moving, will both be producing. So far, you said Yin(t) wood counters Chen earth but did not say Wu(h) fire produce Chen earth. Why?

予曰。午火雖動。化出未土。午與未合。午火貪合。不生辰土。所以此辰土。單受寅木之剋。不得午火之生。故此病體沈重。
I said: Wu(h) fire although moving, it changes into Wei earth. Wu(h) and Wei combine. Wu(h) fire desire to combine, not produce Chen earth. Therefore, this Chen earth, alone by Yin(t) wood countered. It cannot obtain Wu(h) fire producing. Thus, the illness is serious.

須待丑日。沖去未土。而午火無合可貪。午火生土。其災退矣。
Must wait for Chou day to clash out Wei earth. Then Wu(h) fire has not the desire to combine. Wu(h) fire produces earth. The calamity will be relieved!

果于丑日起床。
Result: On Chou day, [the father] got up from bed.