Quiz 31-A person asking by divination for his own illness.

[Johan Hausen Purple Cloud]

Something interesting to note! In both divinations, the Officer lines in the base hexagram are the same: Officer+Tiger+Hai Water in the Li Palace.  We know that Officer gives a hint on the nature of illness.  Li is Fire = blood, infection.  White Tiger also pertains to injury or cut.  Could it be that he had a serious wound that led to blood loss and infection?  In ancient times, injuries like this could be detrimental to life because antibiotics were not well developed yet.

Do you have a source foe li being blood? I use the body part eyes for li.

[duesouth]

Hi all,

FYI. My translation of the case study using the 1691AD version of Zengshan Buyi (ZSBY) (see ZSBY-3 pdf in https://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=1985.0):

[Ex.10-13a. H/F to F/M]
又如丑月戊子日。自占病。得天火同人變旅卦。
Another example: Chou month, Wu Zi day. Person divining about own illness. Obtained Heaven-Fire Fellowship [H/F], transforming to Traveling gua [F/M].

子 戌 丶應   丶
財 申金 ○   丶丶
兄午 丶   丶
鬼 亥水 丶世   丶
子 丑 丶丶   丶丶
父 卯木 ○   子 辰土 丶丶

Heaven-Fire Fellowship [H/F] Fire-Mountain Traveling [F/M]
Son-Daughter Xu earth 丶 Object Brother-Sister Si fire 丶
Wife-Wealth Shen metal ○ Son-Daughter Wei earth 丶丶
Brother-Sister Wu(h) fire 丶 Wife-Wealth You metal 丶
Officer-Ghost Hai water 丶 Subject Wife-Wealth Shen metal 丶
Son-Daughter Chou earth 丶丶 Brother-Sister Wu(h) fire 丶丶
Father-Mother Mao wood ○ Son-Daughter Chen earth 丶丶

自占病。世爲用神。世爻亥水。子日拱之。又得申金元神。動而相生。乃不死之症。
Person divining about own illness. Subject is Useful God. Subject line is Hai water. Zi day clasps it. Also obtained Shen metal Source God moving and producing. So, not die from illness.

疑其申金墓于丑月。恐不能生。
[But have] some doubt, given that Shen metal Tomb(p) is in Chou month. Afraid that [the Source God] cannot produce.

[Ex.10-13b. F/F to F/H]
請伊母再占一卦。得離卦變火天大有
Invited his mother to again divine a gua. Obtained Li gua [F/F], transforming to Fire-Heaven Great Reward [F/H].

兄 巳 丶世
子 未 丶丶
財 酉 丶
鬼 亥 丶應
子 丑土 ㄨ   父 寅木
父 卯 丶

Li as Fire [F/F] Fire-Heaven Great Reward [F/H]
Brother-Sister Si fire 丶 Subject Brother-Sister Si fire 丶
Son-Daughter Wei earth 丶丶 Son-Daughter   Wei earth 丶丶
Wife-Wealth You metal 丶 Wife-Wealth   You metal 丶
Officer-Ghost Hai water 丶 Object Son-Daughter Chen earth 丶
Son-Daughter Chou earth ㄨ Father-Mother Yin(t) wood 丶
Father-Mother Mao wood 丶 Officer-Ghost Zi water 丶

母占子。子孫爲用神。丑土子孫雖逢月建。不宜動化寅木。囘頭之剋。目下雖則無妨。交春木旺土衰。必死。
Mother divining about son. Son-Daughter is Useful God. Chou earth Son-Daughter although meeting Month Builder, is not suitable [as it is] moving and changing into Yin(t) wood to turn back to counter. At present although without hindrance, in springtime, wood Prosperous(s), earth Declining(s). Certain to die.

又合前卦。亥水世爻。得申金元神相生。寅月冲去申金則危矣。
Also accords with prior gua Hai water Subject line, obtaining Shen metal Source God producing. [But when] Yin(t) month clashes out Shen metal, then dangerous!

果卒于交春之日。
Result: He died on a spring day.

[ren]

Hey Duesouth, All,

I have always had some issues with the character 拱 - gong.
Initially I have seen it used in relationship to a Ban San He - half combination.
i.e., Shen Chen, where Zi is missing. Here 拱 means arch or surround.

So this phrase 子日拱之 has me a little confused.
But after a little research, I think the phrase means (the) Day - Zi, supports it (Hai).

ren


@Sacrar

[Random88]

 Second hexagram seems clear, not much to mention there... Returning Spirit does seem to happen often in medical cases for the person passing, there was a book from a very high ranking MD in a hospital that asked before every case he had... Had thousands of questions. Nothing is 100% I guess, but Returning Spirit as passing away and Wondering Spirit as falling in coma seems to have happened very often.
Does it need for the hexagrams to be in the same palace - I do not know, I assume not, as that would cut the cases by 8 and will be much more difficult to notice.

So is the second divination a sure death...  In my view that is way too strong of a divination no matter the hexagram. More fair approach would be just to mention in the spring his line will be much, much weaker and restricted...

What do we have in the first case, however... At Yin month Shen woud be clashed away... Here it comes up to what line we view as the one interacting in such case. I view that Wei interacts at line 5, but carries the intention and images of Shen. In this case Shen would be clashed by Yin and Wei while suppose to support him, but will actually weaken him, as Wei instead.

His line is strong in the day and weak in the month...
So far nothing here suggests death, his line is weak and may be somewhat weaker in Yin month, but nothing that severe.
Line 1 is moving... Also transforms to Earth. Also weakening him and more clearly this time.

If we take the idea he viewed the line interactions as different and view that Shen was active instead of Wei(his view can change the outcome, as many of us I would guess have noticed by now), then Shen being clashed by Yin, Yin weakening his line slightly, Wei weakening him and Chen weakening him does look worse.
There is more here, there are images of death, but I don't think that has been in the open, so can't go more into it.

Is Li showing blood... This goes into our view to health, blood does seem to carry similar images, it grasps attention when one sees it, its of course red in most cases, it can't sustain for long, very fast starts tranforms to other elements(earth)... So from outsider point of view it seems to be fire.
But then for its functions in the body, it can carry many other images, depending what angle one wants to view it from.

What was the actual problem... I'm not sure the system will show it with TCM terminology if the person divining and reading it doesn't know that... He is water line at third position and being weakened by earth... The idea water can show immunity is something I kinda agree with, event though , yea, no immunity in this way in old text it seems...

So from everyday point of view, he is pulled back in(water), the environment is rushing him showing very strong processes in him(white tiger)... Then meeting with different inert structures around him that just exhaust him. So like someone trying to bring a change, to accomplish something in environment that can not be changed... So he is exhausted more and more. Then in Yin month that is taken away by very strong new developments that make what he is fighting for out of place(yin clashing shen, also wood weakening him while he is still in white tiger line).
In that case from a purely human point of view, someones aims may become empty and that will affect his health , as it comes with the idea what he wants can not be accomplished, first because the environment is weakening the attempt, second because new developments make it out of place, as well in the strping.

Is this a clear divination for someone dying... In my view, no. Nothing here clearly shows it, there are some images of weakness together with images of death around, but they both are somewhat often to see... So if I had something like that would never say the person will pass away, there is no info to think that clearly. But there is enough to say he may be in much weaken condition in the coming spring and Yin month.


Without knowing more, may be wiser to not count too much on these examples, though, we don't know what happened, we don't know how much precision there was in recording all that, we don't even know how the 2 would read their own hexagrams and that may be important as well... So its curious, but taking it too seriously may be more a hindrance then help in learning all this, imo.