Hidden Lines

[Tientai ✝️]

I don't view it that Shen comes out. I view it as people hidden behind showing support(western medicine doctor, or sport related friend etc). Perfectly fitting the idea hidden line shows support when producing without coming to the front.

Would agree Shen comes out if Ren went in a place where other people took care of him, as then other people would be in the front, while he would take Child position just resting. As that could be a resting vacation thing(people can do that for injury in parts of the world), could be a hospital for a few days or something similar.

Very good @Gmuli  ..
.. what coincidence  ..!!
That was my initial position ..
http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=1015.msg7620#msg7620
 Re: Is My Shoulder Injury Serious?
« Reply #5
..

[Sacrar]

There's a good debate going on about the hidden lines.

Couple that with my doubt about the fake Kong Wang, here's a case where someone asks if he'll get the money his boss owes him.


https://www.bright-hall.net/wwg/15,0,0,0,0,0,0,2,8,2020-03-09,23:03

We see that the Month branch coincides with the hidden line and is also being vitalized (sheng) by the Day. Also, the fushen is giving birth to the feishen. Would it be a "fake kong wang" or directly "not kong wang"? Is it filled by the Month Mao so there's no void???

the Hidden Spirit (Shen) produces the Flying spirit (Zi)

Jack chiu in his book just for the issue that JLIM comments on, when fushen vitalizes feishen. He says that if that happens the hidden line is effective (able to impose relationships on other lines and thus get out of the hidden mode). This is a rule that I have marked in red as it seems to go against common sense, because it is strengthening the line that is hiding it. But that's what he says in his book.

[Gmuli]

I know, I started with that, but with time I started using other rules. : )

This is good example, yea, I would expect he would get his money on the next Mao day or even earlier.
Yet if we follow Jacks rules that won't happen, as the hidden line produces the visible line so no reason to come out.

[JLim (Darma W)]

I am not aware of that case, Sacrar and Gmuli.  So did he finally get his money from the boss?

[Gmuli]

I am not aware of that case, Sacrar and Gmuli.  So did he finally get his money from the boss?

I don't know it either... Was guessing how it could have turned out. Its not from Jacks book(somewhat obvious by the date).

[Sacrar]

I am not aware of that case, Sacrar and Gmuli.  So did he finally get his money from the boss?

This is a case I remembered and I saw it as a very good example for both fake kong wang and fushen rules

And yes, He finally got the money, I only know that on March 20th the boss told him that would give him the money, but that because of the quarantine for the covid-19 the transaction would be delayed. It seems that he received it a few days later than March 20th, but I don't know the exact date.

My doubt is whether the Month of Mao is capable of filling the void. If so, it would resolve the issue of the void. Even if Month Mao was not able to fill the void, Day and Month support Mao hidden line in void, then it could be a fake kong wang (??). I don't know that's why I'm asking here.

I think the aspect of whether it comes out of hiding mode is due to these aspects:
- The month of Mao supports the fushen and the day gives birth to it.
- The Day of Hai water weakens the feishen Wu fire (the day is fierce!)

[Sacrar]

I know, I started with that, but with time I started using other rules. : )

This is good example, yea, I would expect he would get his money on the next Mao day or even earlier.
Yet if we follow Jacks rules that won't happen, as the hidden line produces the visible line so no reason to come out.

In your WWG calculator you have as a rule that if the hidden line strengthens the visible line the hidden line is hidden. But that's not what Jack Chiu says.
What does your experience tell you in that case, is hidden in that circumstance?

[Gmuli]

I am not aware of that case, Sacrar and Gmuli.  So did he finally get his money from the boss?

This is a case I remembered and I saw it as a very good example for both fake kong wang and fushen rules

And yes, He finally got the money, I only know that on March 20th the boss told him that would give him the money, but that because of the quarantine for the covid-19 the transaction would be delayed. It seems that he received it a few days later than March 20th, but I don't know the exact date.

My doubt is whether the Month of Mao is capable of filling the void. If so, it would resolve the issue of the void. Even if Month Mao was not able to fill the void, Day and Month support Mao hidden line in void, then it could be a fake kong wang (??). I don't know that's why I'm asking here.

I think the aspect of whether it comes out of hiding mode is due to these aspects:
- The month of Mao supports the fushen and the day gives birth to it.
- The Day of Hai water weakens the feishen Wu fire (the day is fierce!)

I can recommend to not count on the rules of the .exe calculator much. Most was from Jack, but I don't use that now, one of the reasons we are moving to the site calculators, in there will set only stuff I'm absolutely sure works, or form source that I have full confidence in.
And that basically means its very likely we won't see rules in there anytime soon . ; )

Same problem for images of the Trigrams, now on the site the Images from Harmen are much, much better, yet back then I set what I had for the PC software.


About the rules - I do agree, the hidden line is strong and its also in the month. Month can interact with everything, of course the line would interact as well(as it would be strange if the same branch interacts form the month and not from the line).

In your WWG calculator you have as a rule that if the hidden line strengthens the visible line the hidden line is hidden. But that's not what Jack Chiu says.

Yea, that was a mistake, probably, but I don't actually use any of that now, I use that in both cases it will stay hidden unless other factor comes in(like same line in the month, or line on top of it in void).
The way I view it now, its very unlikely hidden line will become visible, as just the way it seems from real life examples. There was a long period(more then a year) where I just consider them to never become visible, but few adjustments were needed.

The exception I'm happy to add after Tientai translation is if the hidden line controls the visible line and is very strong(so supported by month and day) it can show up very fiercely, but I'm still not actually using the other stuff, I'm just overly enthusiastic when something works sometimes hehe
(although for overly strong hidden line, may reconsider depending on the situation itself)

[Tientai ✝️]

Can anyone facing with cases that Fei Shen is tomb of Fu Shen ? ...                                                                                                                                                                                       
Can occure this principle ..?
Let's try an example ..
Month : Wei
Day: wu fire
Hiding spirit (Fu shen) : Si fire
Flying spirit (Fei Shen) : Xu earth
...

[Gmuli]

Can anyone facing with cases that Fei Shen is tomb of Fu Shen ? ...                                                                                                                                                                                       
Can occure this principle ..?
Let's try an example ..
Month : Wei
Day: wu fire
Hiding spirit (Fu shen) : Si fire
Flying spirit (Fei Shen) : Xu earth
...

Its very rare, however.
There are only 3 Hexagrams where that can happen I think, that would be 33 41 61 and I dont think it can ever be Si<>Xu.

So having example with one of these 3 hexagrams, to have the hidden line be that important and the circumstances so clear to follow, will be challenging to find. : )

[Tientai ✝️]

Yes .. you are right Gmuli  .. there isn't such a compination  ..
I had one case with fei Shen to be a tomb of Fu Shen ... but I don't find in my papers ..                                                                                                                                                         
When find I will post it ..
Thanks

[JLim (Darma W)]

Fei Shen is a Tomb of Fu Shen example from the classics 《增删卜易》Zeng Shan Bu Yi

http://www.ydygfs.com/a/liuyaoyuce/2018/0723/2147.html

如：申月 壬子日 (旬空：寅卯)，占子病，得“天山遁”

                                    乾宫：天山遁
                  白虎　　　　　　　父母壬戌土 ━━━
                  螣蛇　　　　　　　兄弟壬申金 ━━━ 应
                  勾陈　　　　　　　官鬼壬午火 ━━━
                  朱雀　　　　　　　兄弟丙申金 ━━━
                  青龙　妻财甲寅木　官鬼丙午火 ━　━ 世
                  玄武　子孙甲子水　父母丙辰土 ━　━

[Tientai ✝️]

Fei Shen is a Tomb of Fu Shen example from the classics 《增删卜易》Zeng Shan Bu Yi

http://www.ydygfs.com/a/liuyaoyuce/2018/0723/2147.html
...

Someone made a divination on son's illness  ..
Child is in 1st fushen Zi water line .. with fei shen Parents Chen (earth - tomb of water)..
Day branch Zi water and month Shen metal support and product fushen .. on this case is difficult to enter parents chen tomb (.. will fly out ..) ..
Officer on Ti- Self line is not strong ..
I think very soon his son will recover from illness ..
Tt

[JLim (Darma W)]

Hi Tientai, are you sure that the Hidden spirit flies out?  None of the four conditions below is satisfied:

伏神能全出有四种情况即：
飞生之伏、飞助之伏、飞空之伏，及伏克飞。
There are four ways the Hidden spirit (FuShen) can come out:
The Flying spirit births the Hidden spirit.
The Flying spirit assist the Hidden spirit.
The Flying spirit is in Kong.
The Hidden spirit controls (restrains) the Flying Spirit.

[Gmuli]

Hi Tientai, are you sure that the Hidden spirit flies out?  None of the four conditions below is satisfied:

伏神能全出有四种情况即：
飞生之伏、飞助之伏、飞空之伏，及伏克飞。
There are four ways the Hidden spirit (FuShen) can come out:
The Flying spirit births the Hidden spirit.
The Flying spirit assist the Hidden spirit.
The Flying spirit is in Kong.
The Hidden spirit controls (restrains) the Flying Spirit.

I personally have a lot of doubts in classic texts.
We all have probably read bazi classics like 子平真诠评注 or 滴天髓 or other translations and the forum wouldn't be based on "mangpai blindman schools" if we thought everything in there works exactly as its presented . : )

There are many examples all around, if we check Alex Chius site, or even Ak Gurus examples there are many, many readings(hundreds+) and everything fits perfectly to the rules they are using... And I have doubts it actually happened like that. Even more so for texts written by people I don't know, but hundreds of years ago.


In that sense I ignore examples form classic texts usually,no idea who wrote them or how carefully they followed the events after the question to be sure the outcome will fit to what they said. Only thing we know is that they were wrote hundreds of years ago, how good were the people with the system back then I would not know.

 I do know if someone takes a present WWG book, a few hundred years from now and accept the rules work perfectly like it is said there, because its on the topic, because someone takes it as classic, or because it seems respectable, there would be a lot of disappointment ahead, since much of what is in it won't work very well(or at all) as presented.


Same counts for authors and people like Alex, maybe all was correct, maybe they just wrote how the situation should go so it fits the rules... We will never know, what I do know is that I have a lot of doubts in present day rules presented in WWG sources. I have even more doubt in classical texts rules and cases, presented hundreds of years ago.

In this specific text, there doesn't seem to be any info how the situation actually went on from there, so its not a big problem ehre, but even if there was -classical text example for me last few years is much more unreliable then most other sources out there(even a normal member posting a question).