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Author Topic: Liu Yao and tumors  (Read 750 times)

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Online Tientai

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Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2019, 09:07:44 AM »
Very good translation Ren ... thanks a lot ..!!

As for the source of this example I think isn't realistic and agree with @The-Monk mostly..

1. Si fire unmoving brother line on 5th position could not secretly move  .. due to lacking strength from month (prison)... so Liu He Si -Shen not occur  ..!!

2. Fu Shen Zi water wealth line is free to flee and strong enouth to clash hurting 2nd brother line Wu fire now in prison also ..!!

It seems most of the explanation given from this source as "after - math ornamental decoration " or " very good to be true  (realistic )"

Tientai

« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 03:30:30 PM by Tientai »

Offline tanpai

Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2019, 10:36:16 AM »
@Tientai,
„Moreover all members are friends no one is against your opinion .. (I think you have good and friendly  intention too ).”
Monk has formulated a super critique that has little to do with medical diagnosis. .Where is his translation? This is the problem! ;D

Online Tientai

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Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2019, 12:31:36 PM »
Very good translation Ren ... thanks a lot ..!!

As for the source of this example I think isn't realistic and agree with @The-Monk mostly..

1. Si fire unmoving brother line on 5th position could not secretly move  .. due to lacking strength from month (prison)... so Liu He Si -Shen not occur  ..!!

2. Fu Shen Zi water wealth line is free to flee and strong enouth to clash hurting 2nd brother line Wu fire now in prison also ..!!

It seems most of the explanation given from this source as "aftereffect ornamental decoration " or " very good to be true  (realistic )"

Tientai

As you understand  .. the problem isn't if he can translate all this Chinese text .. ( .. As I know @The-Monk  is a good translator).. but why to be involved on such confusing explanation as i mentioned before ...!!☺☺

Tientai


Offline Gmuli

Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2019, 02:05:12 PM »
@Tientai,
Monk has formulated a super critique that has little to do with medical diagnosis. .

It wasn't untrue, though. : )
While the effort is appreciated if someone say the first post in the topic was fully readable and easy to understand to them, I would have some doubts...
And if we can't understand what was posted, a feedback on that can be a reasonable approach.

Anyway, we should move on from that in my humble opinion and see if The Monk can provide alternative reading on the case. Medical Liu Yao is very interesting thing, in my humble opinion, so some more info on how it works is always good. : )

Online JLim

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Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2019, 03:05:22 PM »
Very good translation Ren ... thanks a lot ..!!
Thanks very much for your contribution :)
As for the source of this example I think isn't realistic and agree with @The-Monk mostly..

1. Si fire unmoving brother line on 5th position could not secretly move  .. due to lacking strength from month (prison)... so Liu He Si -Shen not occur  ..!!
Yes, I agree with you and not the Chinese author, it cannot move.  There is another way for the hidden/secret movement when it lacks strength from the Month, but in this case you are right.

2. Fu Shen Zi water wealth line is free to flee and strong enough to clash hurting 2nd brother line Wu fire now in prison also ..!!
That is correct. It's a pity that the Chinese author did not include this important point in their analysis.  This is actually key to understanding the hemangioma.  Hemangioma is an abnormal buildup of blood vessels in the skin or internal, organs, a blood vessel tumor.  I am not a medical doctor, so this term is new to me.

1. Zi+Gou Chen clashes Wu Fire coming with Xuan Wu. 
2. Wu Fire+Xuan Wu (Murky Warrior) indicates blood vessel, and the line position of Wu Fire indicates the leg.
3. Gou Chen indicates tumor (especially since the hexagram is Gen family)

I agree with the Chinese author's good analysis that Sibling represents leg/foot and moving to Officer --> leg/foot is injured.  We can consider this as point #4.  And the injury was due to surgery in 1999! That's again a keen observation.

@ ren:  独发之爻 refers to a hexagram with a single moving line.  As we see, out of six lines, only the first line moves.

可以当病看 means "it can be regarded as the Illness (star)". They were talking about the Sibling (Chen Earth).

Offline Gmuli

Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2019, 06:11:50 PM »
2. Wu Fire+Xuan Wu (Murky Warrior) indicates blood vessel, and the line position of Wu Fire indicates the leg.

I like that, it makes sense. : )

Offline The-Monk

Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2019, 09:47:18 PM »
The continuation of the interpreted into English post on the first page that I started. Sorry about the delay, @ren already did a great job there with their post already.

Quote
酉月辛亥日 (旬空:寅卯),一男子求测疾病,得风山渐变风火家人。
螣蛇       官鬼辛卯木 ━━━ 应   
勾陈 妻财丙子水 父母辛巳火 ━━━     
朱雀       兄弟辛未土 ━ ━     
青龙       子孙丙申金 ━━━ 世   
玄武       父母丙午火 ━ ━     
白虎       兄弟丙辰土 ━ ━  ×→ 官鬼己卯木

此卦测自己病,以世爻为用神。世爻得月比扶旺相,见日辰亥水为病地,说明世爻有病。临青龙,青龙主痛,所以可以判断本人因为疾病而疼痛。

English: This reading is about asking ones own illness, so it uses the Self Line (世爻) as the Useful/Use God (用神). The Self Line has support from the Month, but looking at the Day it (the Self Line) is found to be sitting on the Illness stage (Twelve Stage), which tells us plainly that the person asking (Self Line) has an Illness.
(Since the Self Line is) Sitting on the Azure/Green Dragon, and the Azure/Green Dragon represents Pain, we can deduce that this person is suffering pain from having this illness.

The-Monk: Hexagram is also a correct word, but inappropriate use here. Since 卦 within the context of itself during a reading, is simply a reading, not a Hexagram unless it is specifically talking about one of the 64 Hexagrams or something remarkable about the Hexagram in question.

初爻兄弟辰土为元神,动而被变爻回头克,元神被伤,可以当病看,此爻化出官鬼,也可以把此爻当病看,元神化空化破,也可以当病看,独发之爻也可以把它当病来看,所以这个爻就是焦点。

English: The First Line is represented by Siblings/Brothers on Dragon Earth, and is the "Supporting Star"/Source Star within this reading (元神 : Because this supports the Focus or Useful/Use God (用神) in the question). As a moving line, it transforms into something that comes into conflict with itself, resulting in the "Supporting Star" being hindered. This transformed state also hapens to be an Officer/Authority Star, which can be used as a representation for illness. The "Supporting Star" transforming into an Empty/Void state as well as being a Month Break (Broken/Clashed by the Month), can also be used to represent illness. A single moving line may also be used to view the state of an illness, which is why this (First) line is also a focal point of interest in determining any illness.

The-Monk: Technically, we could write that the "Supporting Star"/Source Star is actually injured or hurt as that would be the literal meaning behind the original characters, but this in English actually does not make good use of meanings, especially when talking about illness to a person, since it would potentially cause confusion about what is injuring what, or what has been injured. Therefore the sentence was changed to "transforms into something that comes into conflict with itself", since the original characters does not make clear how it is "injured". Clash? Restriction? Weakening? None of it is made clear, yet it is implied it could be any of them, therefore "coming into conflict with itself" should be a clear enough meaning for learners of Liu Yao to reconise that something in relation to ther relationships between the branches is in effect here, yet it will not confuse any learners about whether it is talking about an actual injury to the person, or an injury to a line.

The-Monk: The Supporting Star can be seen to the source or origination of where the Focus or You comes from, or for example, food and water that sustains you (your source of support for your body). If the food and water has conflicting issues in relation to itself, such as being rationed or restricted, then it stands to reason that you yourself would not be well since there is less of it, thereby resulting in being unwell. Those looking to learn Da Liu Ren will find concepts like this in use quite often.

初爻为脚,兄弟也为腿脚,又兄弟动化官,符合手脚之伤的组合,而世爻在三爻,三爻为大腿,所以综合判断可以是腿脚上的疾病。

English: The First Line represents the feet (Liu Yao Line Representations), and is a Sibling/Brothers Moving Line that also Transforms to an Officer/Authority Line, this fullfills the requirements to Interpret an outcome of their Hands and Feet being injured or suffering from illness. Furthermore, as the Self/Subject Line is on the Third Line, and the Third Line also representing the Thigh, all together, the various parts of this reading indicate that the illness and injury can be found upon the leg of this person.

The-Monk: Some of you who have been arround may find the next bits familiar: The use of multiple idential "Images" to build up a combined analysis and to confirm something within a reading. Whilst this isn't said within this line, it is essentially implied the same if you view the actions involved in performing the reading. And you will see it in action a few more times in this translate post as well.

The-Monk: The Sibling Line has a representation of the hands and feet as well, as they need to work in tandem in most cases, as well as physically exert themselves under normal circumstances, and so when targeted negatively in a reading, can be used to represent injury and illness to this area of the body.

兄弟辰土临白虎,白虎主疾病,也主血液,辰土为财库,财为水,财主血液,水也可以主血液,辰土水库就可以理解为装血液的血管,所以就可以判断是腿脚上血管出了问题。忌神父母巳火临勾陈暗动克合世爻,忌神可以代表疾病,合表示疾病缠身。勾陈为肿胀,综合刚才的分析,可以判断腿脚上有血管瘤。实际上正是腿上血管瘤,想做手术。

English: The (First Lines) Sibling/Brother Line also sits atop the White Tiger (Six Animals/Beasts), whilst the White Tiger it sits upon is associated with illness and blood (loss). The First Line also happens to be Dragon as well, which acts as a Store of the Five Element of Water, and Water also happens to be Wealth (Six Family Relations) in this reading. Wealth is viewed as blood, Water can also be used to represent blood. As a Storage for Water, the Dragon can be reasoned to be the container for blood (Water and Wealth representations) itself and so it can be seen as blood vessels, etc. So, combined with the other details, we can reason that the problem exists on the blood vessels on the leg itself. There also happens to be a line within the reading that is undergoing Hidden Movement (暗动); the Annoying God/Spirit of Annoyance (忌神) that is the Parent Line, represented by the Snake atop the Curved Array (勾陈), which subsequently attempts to Combine (合) with the Self Line. The Annoying God may also be viewed from the view of the person themselves (the person asking the question to this Reading about illness) to be an illness in of itself. As the Annoying God Combines with the Self Line, it suggests that the illness plagues the body, having lingered for a while. The Curved Array is often seen as a Swelling, so combined with the previously obtained "Images", we can deduce that the issue is a Swelling of the Blood Vessels located on their legs. It was revealed after that there was such an issue, and the person desires to undertake an procedure over it.

The-Monk: This slightly longer sentence contains largely instructional material and how such a diagnosis was made, without which it would be impossible to come to such a conclusion. Although it is not the only important part within the Interpretation phase of this Divination reading, it is without a doubt the most critical to making an evaluation on the matter raised. Something that is very clearly missing in OP post.

The-Monk: With regards to the Hidden Movement of a line, much like everyone else, I do not see how it can be viewed as such on its own. In theory, there is at least one school that would see this line as applicable for Hidden Movement because of the Month performing a Half-Combination with the line and hence imparts enough strength to it that it is able to undergo Hidden Movement to produce particular outcomes.

The-Monk: Technically speaking, any decent Liu Yao user should be able to conclude that there is a Swelling in the Blood Vessels on the leg, but to specifically mention a specific type of illness will be peculiar. There could be a clot within the blood vessels as well with this set of Images,

The-Monk: Whilst the Third Line here is being used to represent the Thigh (and hence Leg), it is not commonly so within the Representations for each of the Lines. The only reason it can be done so here, is because there is enough previously concluded Images that made mention of the Leg already, and so taking the Image of the Third Line allows you to just about tie it in together. Typically, the Third Line is used to represent the buttocks and genitalia, but as this region "height" wise borders onto the top of the legs (the Thighs), it can be used to confirm through associated Imagery .

也许有人会问,官鬼卯木月破空亡,能克辰土吗?这个官鬼卯木得日生为旺,99年实空实破,临白虎主手术,此人在99年因为不能行走曾经做过一次手术。

English: There may be those who are wondering, if the Officer/Authority line that is the Rabbit (that is Transformed from the First Line) happens to be under a Month Break, as well as being Empty/Void, is it actually able to hinder, annoy or "Come into conflict with itself" that is the Dragon (that is Transformed out from)? This Officer Line also happens to be supported by the Date (Pig), and the year 1999 happens to be a Rabbit as well, thereby bringing the Officer Star into focus for that year despite these issues present to the Line (Rabbit: Broken and Void) in the reading. Once again, with the White Tiger representing blood loss (and operations), with all the previous conclusions taken together, this finally results in the need for an operation in 1999 after experiencing severe loss of mobility.

The-Monk: This sentence goes through the reasonings for the the conclusions they arrived at or why it did not arrive at a particular outcome. But its a lot less detailed as it is not going through as many of the Image relational reasonings as the previous sentence did. Not a fan of this particular sentence as it feels more added on matter of fact and not really teaching the steps involved for coming to such a conclusion decisively.

也许有人问,父母巳火暗动克世为什么不用来取信息判断疾病?这是因为元神独发,所以卦的中心就转移到了这个地方。而父母巳火虽然算暗动,但日月不扶助,力量比较小,有病也不是主要的了。不过要是取信息,仍然有信息存在。此卦为艮宫卦,艮为鼻子,五爻也为鼻子,勾陈主肿胀,巳火为水的绝地,财为鼻涕,水也可以主黏液,巳火绝财,就是没有鼻涕,勾陈主肿胀、勾绊,可以引申为堵塞,这样分析就可以把这个象取出来了。实际上他鼻子肿得不通。

English: Some may question about if the Hidden Movement Line (Parent also Snake) combining with the Self Line is not used to determine illness or injury. The reason we do not do so, is because the Supporting God is the sole Moving Line, and so the main focus resides there. And whilst the Parent Line (Snake) may be undergoing Hidden Movement, because it is supported by neither the Month nor the Day, its ability to do any action is limited; any illness or injury will not be the main one of note. But, if we were to task it to obtain information, there remains some information that can be retrieved from it. As the Hexagram is drived from the Hexagram Palace of Gen (Earth), and Gen can represent the Nose, since it sits on the Fifth Line that also represents the Nose, along the Curved Array (once again representing a Swelling), Snake being the entryopy point for Water and Wealth (Water) being seen as the nasal drainage, we can surmise that the Nose is suffering from congestion. This can be seen as a way of deriving a conclusion (Images) from information in the reading. In reality, the persons nose was swollen to the point being blocked entirely.

The-Monk: Of note, that under certain Schools, certain configurations of Moving Lines hold differing levels of importance during the Interpretaion of a Divination. This example hails from one such school. Since it places heavy importance on the singular Moving Line compared to anything else.

The-Monk: With regards to why the Hidden Movement Line not being a direct issue and why sole Moving Line effectively negates this issue, is because of the common Five Element Growth/Development Cycle, where the Annoying God will always support the Supporting God (in support of your Focus, or in this case, the Self Line in this particular reading). This is less so to do with actual sole (singular) Line Movement being the focal point of a reading and more to do with the Five Element relationship. This unfortunately wasn't made clear in the original Chinese post.

Technically speaking it's just a more English friendly version of what @ren already posted with some added info to help keep people from getting lost. But as you can see, there's a lot of critical parts that would have made sense for the OP post, but was clearly missing, thereby throwing the entire OP translation, even if it was aiming for the "essence" only into serious doubt. You cannot after all, make any sort of medical analysis without the "analysis" portion.

Offline ren

Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2019, 01:42:38 AM »
[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]

Offline Gmuli

Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2019, 08:35:14 AM »


I think this makes a lot of sense. So the person asks for their health, then the whole hexagram is looking at where in their body there may be problem even if its not initially Officer line.

I like that. I wonder what happens if instead they asked for something outside of their body in relation to health. So lets say someone asks how a specific food they gonna eat will affect their health.

Then we can't look the whole Hexagram as their body, as at least one line would have to show the food(I would guess Child line coz eating god images), but the rest is maybe similar, with still self line as focus?

Offline tanpai

Re: Liu Yao and tumors
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2019, 09:51:55 AM »
„The-Monk: Hexagram is also a correct word, but inappropriate use here."
     Quote from the Medical I Ching Book-Hex.53 by Miki Shima.
General indications:  gradual, progressive diseases with slow onset, continual changes of symptomatology. Death.
Moving line 1:leg pain,injury by cold,depression, constipation.


 

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