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Library => Liu Yao => Topic started by: Gmuli on June 14, 2019, 05:36:45 PM
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Second time in a few weeks on a question for lost pet(both times cat) the rest seems to fit, with directions events etc. but the cat itself is dead instead of alive.
The other example is somewhere around the forums, however this one is even more unusual.
So here is the Question:
"What is going on with the persons cat?".
The person is a friend of my mother, so I use Child/Offspring line for the cat and Sibling line for the owner.
Cat has been missing.
We have this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9M4FTrpk/whathappenedwiththecat.png)
Now, we have Sibling lines from the day producing the cats line. Suggest people around will help find the cat. That happened.
The cat Line is weak in the Month, but very strong in the day from the support of the people around. So should probably be fine.
Yet it turns out the cat fall from very high. Got up and moved a short distance to the stairs in the building and neighbors found it there, said its dead and throw it out. Even if it wasn't dead by then, by this point it should be.
With that we do have the interactions Sibling strongly moving the cat, but the line of the cat is so strong supported by the day(even though weak in the month), I don't know why the cat would be dead.
Now, I would just assume it was alive when they moved it, however there was almost identical example(more or less) few weeks ago and it was again a dead cat with very strong Offspring line.
Soo... Anyone seen something like that divining for pets?
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It's because you missed out on some of the rules for Void/Empty. Which would have altered the reading.
1. Void cannot support others. Neither can it be supported others.
A. Unless it exists within the Month (as it is impossible for it to be Void and exist within the Day).
B. It is being Clashed by the Day whilst being supported by a third party (Month, Moving Line that can Support, etc)
Within your reading, whilst there is support within the day. It would have been the same as a Botanist trying to save a patient. The Botanist is trained and recosnises the concepts needed to save the patient. But in the end, it simply isn't viable.
Within the interactions, there was simply no support helping the animal. You had the animal (Focus) not able to receive help (Void). You had a moving line (Wu, 4th line) that attacked (and capable of doing harm, because it had the power of the Month behind it) the Focus. This is not a sign of fortune and safety for the Focus.
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Thank you.
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The person is a friend of my mother, so I use Child/Offspring line for the cat and Sibling line for the owner.
In this case, the querent is the friend of Gmuli's mother. Self line represents the querent.
Who raised the hexagram, Gmuli? Was it yourself on behalf of this friend? Or was it this friend who raised it?
The Offspring line sits in the Self position, together with Zi Wealth. Zi as hidden line is able to come out (in this case). But then it suffers from Month Break (Wu clashes Zi), which is too bad for the cat & querent.
- Others line represents the place where the cat may be.
- Others line Mao is weak by both Month and Day.
- Mao combines with Xu, which is the topmost line of the hexagram. It means a very high place. Possibly dangerous because of the Murky Warrior and due to its weakness.
- This Xu is also the Siblings line, and Siblings is either a friend/neighbor/colleague of the querent.
- Zi Water cannot support Mao Wood, because of the Month Break. Therefore, there is no support whatsoever for the Wood. Thus, Others line is a bad place for the cat to be.
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Gmuli, is the querent an elderly woman? Or, if you threw the coins (or some other method) for the querent, is the querent a woman who's significantly older than you?
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Yea, older then me and I made the Hexagram.
This is very interesting... So if we look at Other line as where the cat could be, that line being Officer may show danger maybe or injury?Mao isn't moving, but it can combine from the day branch, and that would point to line 6, so high place then falling down...
Zi comes out, because the line on top of it(flying spirit?) Shen produces it, fair enough, but the cat would still be Shen, right?So Zi is in bad shape, but that may not be the cat... Or maybe it could be, Asset as a cat I can imagine as well as a pointer that the cat is important to the situation.
All this is very interesting thank you.
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Yea, older then me and I made the Hexagram.
Is this older querent female?
Mao isn't moving, but it can combine from the day branch, and that would point to line 6, so high place then falling down...
Yup, "Murky Warrior" can also indicate "falling down" among other things.
Zi comes out, because the line on top of it(flying spirit?) Shen produces it, fair enough, but the cat would still be Shen, right?So Zi is in bad shape, but that may not be the cat... Or maybe it could be, Asset as a cat I can imagine as well as a pointer that the cat is important to the situation.
- No, my reasoning for Zi coming out is not because of Shen producing it. Let's skip the reasoning for now.
- The cat's main Yong Shen is still Offpsring, because a pet is like a child for us.
- Asset as a cat is not applicable, unless the querent has a pet store, in that case Asset is the main Yong Shen.
- But in this case Offspring sits together with Self line. When Self suffers from Month Break, that affects Offspring too.
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Well... If we view Zi as active because Shen is in void, then we have a problem... Because if Shen is inactive, hidden line, can the Wu line interact with it to weaken it?
Coz if Wu doesn't weaken it, we just have a void weak line that is hidden, doesn't seem to cover a dead cat.
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
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Well... If we view Zi as active because Shen is in void, then we have a problem... Because if Shen is inactive, hidden line, can the Wu line interact with it to weaken it?
Good point. I don't think that Wu interacts with Shen during the time that Shen is void.
Coz if Wu doesn't weaken it, we just have a void weak line that is hidden, doesn't seem to cover a dead cat.
But there is the Month Break against the Self line.
What is the gender of this older querent? And when was the cat found dead?
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.] (Hidden Notes: quoting a hide-login post)
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.] (Hidden Notes: quoting a hide-login post)
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Yes woman's feelings are beaten hard this month by the death of her cat ..
it will end in few days !! ..
I hope for her to be balanced on feelings ..
One more thing on guessing ... a day before divination was You metal that can clash Mao officer Other 2nd line .. perhapsI there was an information that the pet was found by "an authority" !! .. but not sure exactly .
A Question : dear @Gmuli can tell us witch direction is found the pet ?
I guess Southwest. .!!
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
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...And finally the trash was North from the apartment.
That is ensure once more that Yongshen is Zi water wife /wealth hidden on 5th self line ..
如用神为水爻, 方位为北.
if Yongshen is in water line, then the direction is North...
..
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[Hidden post: You need login to forum to see it.]
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Yes .. normally you have right.. focus is made on Cat == ( Yongshen )
But Alternatively from a point of view when the 5th self line possess apparently a cat dying and also a hidden Woman .. that is influenced by this adverse situation then this line has something to do with bad feelings of " near dead cat" == white tiger .
I chose Zi wife as Yongshen and cat as Yuanshen.. due to better explain many other combinations...!!
...
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It's because you missed out on some of the rules for Void/Empty. Which would have altered the reading.
1. Void cannot support others. Neither can it be supported others.
A. Unless it exists within the Month (as it is impossible for it to be Void and exist within the Day).
B. It is being Clashed by the Day whilst being supported by a third party (Month, Moving Line that can Support, etc)
Within your reading, whilst there is support within the day. It would have been the same as a Botanist trying to save a patient. The Botanist is trained and recosnises the concepts needed to save the patient. But in the end, it simply isn't viable.
Within the interactions, there was simply no support helping the animal. You had the animal (Focus) not able to receive help (Void). You had a moving line (Wu, 4th line) that attacked (and capable of doing harm, because it had the power of the Month behind it) the Focus. This is not a sign of fortune and safety for the Focus.
Takes a lot of time to test some of these things, as it needs clear enough situation and hexagram. But at this point I very much agree, this is what happened, thank you.
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1. Void cannot support others. Neither can it be supported [by] others.
A. Unless it exists within the Month (as it is impossible for it to be Void and exist within the Day).
B. It is being Clashed by the Day whilst being supported by a third party (Month, Moving Line that can Support, etc)
Point B is a sub-topic that my master had taught me, and it's called 冲空而起. The Chinese term may differ, but the idea is pretty much the same.
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I have created a new topic that arose out of this hexagram: Liu Yao interaction: does combination prevent movement? (http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=997.0[url=http://Liu Yao interaction: does combination prevent movement?)]
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...And finally the trash was North from the apartment.
That is ensure once more that Yongshen is Zi water wife /wealth hidden on 5th self line ..
如用神为水爻, 方位为北.
if Yongshen is in water line, then the direction is North...
..
I don't understand clearly .. is correct that the trash indeed was North from apartment ?
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...And finally the trash was North from the apartment.
That is ensure once more that Yongshen is Zi water wife /wealth hidden on 5th self line ..
如用神为水爻, 方位为北.
if Yongshen is in water line, then the direction is North...
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I don't understand clearly .. is correct that the trash indeed was North from apartment ?
North, yea.
I have been using the 24 mountains from Feng Shui with the branches of Liu Yao and it works very well imo and in there Zi would be north as well. : )
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Gmuli, could you state the dates of
1) hexagram raising
2) when the owner discovered the death of the cat
The year is not needed, because this one is not a long-term type of analysis.
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Gmuli, could you state the dates of
1) hexagram raising
2) when the owner discovered the death of the cat
The year is not needed, because this one is not a long-term type of analysis.
1. I don't understand why the date and time keeps coming up... All that is once in the selectors, another time in text in different place on the site, third time on the string that is copy/pasted.
Lets see how we can read it from the screenshot at the start of the topic. : )
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqTyQBWF/cat-date.png)
Now, this numbers in the lower right corner are the date and time of asking.
6 / 11 / 2018, means that the date was eleventh of the month of June in the year of 2018.
While 6:24 PM, means that this was 6 hours and 24 minutes after 12, so that could also be seen as 18:24 in some countries and places.
In more recent ways of the website that exists in the string as well. That would mean:
1,0,0,0,0,0,0,6,6,2020-05-18,15:52
Is question asked on 18 May 2020 at 15:52 time.
And that exists once more as a red texts or black in some of the views, depending who is using what.
2. Well... That has a few steps. First she heard that her cat is missing. I assume that would be same day as the question was asked, although I'm not sure. But its very likely was the same day.
Then she learned from the person that was staying at her apartment while she was gone, that a neighbor has found a cat that may have died and throw it in the trash. She told us like 2-3 days later, I'm not sure if she knew when the dialog with the neighbor was and we don't know when he found that cat as well. We also don't know its the same cat, but considering everything seems the case.
So up to everyone to figure out when exactly we can say she "found her cat is dead", if we consider it as a emotional "moving on/closure" thing, I think she waited a few days more before she considered that it was her cat that was thrown out and it is already gone.
Precise dates for most of these aren't know, as all is going on through her friend as well and we don't know when she talked with the neighbor or when she found the cat was missing. However, from what I remember a good assumption is that everyone found out the cat is not there same day of asking and the rest of the situation is happening the following 2 days.
I don't think that should matter much, though.
This are details, the importance between a "live and found" cat and a "dead and thrown out" cat is so vast, that there have to be something very important going on, or to be missing in the rules that are used.
For me that was what The Monk posted
(and that would be:
1. Void cannot support others. Neither can it be supported others.
(I'm assuming "by" would be missing here, as otherwise no idea what it would mean)
I'm sure for people using different rules can have many other explanations, form symbolic stars, to the line being so strong that the cat couldn't handle it. However, in any case, it has to be something very important, as missing that factor would lead to very, very strong difference in a prediction.
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Gmuli,
1. Void cannot support others. Neither can it be supported others.
A. Unless it exists within the Month (as it is impossible for it to be Void and exist within the Day).
B. It is being Clashed by the Day whilst being supported by a third party (Month, Moving Line that can Support, etc)
Within your reading, whilst there is support within the day. It would have been the same as a Botanist trying to save a patient. The Botanist is trained and recognises the concepts needed to save the patient. But in the end, it simply isn't viable
Actually, according to TheMonk, there is still support within the day, but then in the end it's not sufficient. Let's enumerate one by one the dynamics of the Self line Shen Metal:
i) It is overcome by Month Wu Horse
ii) It is overcome by Moving Line Wu Horse
iii) It is supported by Day
In total, this is two minus vs. one plus, so the cat still "loses". It's not sufficient and viable.
So I agree with your original post (Reply #0) in this topic:
The cat Line is weak in the Month, but very strong in the day from the support of the people around. So should probably be fine.
The only thing you need to add into that analysis is my point ii above, which turns the situation around for the cat.
By the way, sorry for missing the date of hexagram raising at the bottom.
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Ohhh, this is becoming very interesting!
Coz I see where the problem is now its here:
1. Void cannot support others. Neither can it be supported others.
So what does :
Neither can it be supported others.
mean : )
Now, logically I agree it can mean anything, really, however I have a reason why I assume its:
Neither can it be supported by others.
And the reason is in the following sentence:
Within your reading, whilst there is support within the day. It would have been the same as a Botanist trying to save a patient. The Botanist is trained and recosnises the concepts needed to save the patient. But in the end, it simply isn't viable.
The way I understand this is that the Day can produce the line, however the line is in void, so it doesn't really work.
I do agree there is a way to read it where we can say the Day can produce the line, yet that isn't enough.
I think we cna't go more into that, without input from The Monk.
So lets ask. : )
@The-Monk can you clarify that point, can the Day in this case help produce the line, or it can't?
Thanks.
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Alternatively .. adding my view on this pet .!!
1. Woman that want an answer by Gmuli's divination is Yongshen Zi water fushen. .5th Self line
2. Original Shen (Yuanshen) is indeed child Shen Metal 5th self Feishen line.. as correctly @The-Monk declared.
3. All above is a kind of feelings of the Woman plus something terrible on the part of the cat...!!
She was hoping this pet would be alive until someone informed her about the cat's death == zi combine with Chou 3rd line.
4. Other 2nd line is the place where found the cat by someone with Special knowledge on pets of an officer that ensure about this death..!! === Vermilion Bird. .
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There is not any problem with Wu -4th moving line Coz this is a moving line that combines itself (Wu -- Wei ). . So Wu fire not affect Zi hidden 5th line ..
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I have posted later on the below quotation. ..
That is ensure once more that Yongshen is Zi water wife /wealth hidden on 5th self line ..
如用神为水爻, 方位为北.
if Yongshen is in water line, then the direction is North...
@Gmuli, hi
I wonder if this is real direction North that comes with Yongshen Zi water Fushen ..!!
If direction is slightly north east then I can refer another possibility ...!! ... Shishen is on 3rd line Chou .. hence the direction (north east)..
With this possibility only can I agree that Yongshen is Shen metal 5th line ..as Jlim declared ... what is your observation "with 24 mountains of Feng shui" on this direction ? (Slight Northeast ?)..
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Shen would be southwest but...
I'm getting confused now... :(
Lets say The Monk didn't mean that Day can't support a void line, we have this:
It's because you missed out on some of the rules for Void/Empty. Which would have altered the reading.
What is the missed rule that would alter the meaning ?
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I mean if Yongshen is Shen 5th line then there are 2 rules :
1. Yongshen direction - Ask if direction southwest -Shen metal ( I was answered but missed the target..!! )
2. Gua Shen / Shi Shen - ask if direction is on where is Shi Shen (on this case is 3rd line Chou and direction is Northeast )
...
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Shen would be southwest but...
Yong Shen is Shen Metal, which is Southwest. But in this case, the Flying God (Shen) comes with Hidden Line. So the hidden line can also be an alternative direction. Hidden line is Zi, which is North. So, our best guess would be either Southwest or North. I would not look at other lines to avoid confusing myself.
However, we can analyze something else apart from direction. Shen is Metal, so the trash container may be metallic. Flying God is Zi Water, so the cat may have died in/near a water ditch. Then somebody picked it up and moved it to the trash.
It's because you missed out on some of the rules for Void/Empty. Which would have altered the reading.
Gmuli: What is the missed rule that would alter the meaning ?
Answer: it's simply the whole text that he wrote right below that sentence!
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Answer: it's simply the whole text that he wrote right below that sentence!
That is the problem, I don't get it:
Within the interactions, there was simply no support helping the animal. You had the animal (Focus) not able to receive help (Void).
But the animal is able to receive help from the day, apparently, one of the strongest factors it can receive help from?
We see in all other examples, the line is attacked, but since the day is supporting it all goes fine.
Here we have the same, the line is attacked, yet the day isn't enough to help it, because... Why?
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But the animal is able to receive help from the day, apparently, one of the strongest factors it can receive help from?
Yes, you're right. But then further:
Let's enumerate one by one the dynamics of the Self line Shen Metal:
i) It is overcome by Month Wu Horse
ii) It is overcome by Moving Line Wu Horse
iii) It is supported by Day
In total, this is two minus vs. one plus, so the cat still "loses". It's not sufficient and viable.
That's my take on it.
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Gmuli you impressed me why you insist on this .. is simple don't stuck on it !!
Month is the basic "Commander of 30 days" of the day branches even if day is forceful on its acutness ...!!
On the other hand don't mixing the day of animal's death with the day of divination ... you must be more safe with month branch .. !!
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Gmuli you impressed me why you insist on this .. is simple don't stuck on it !!
Month is the basic "Commander of 30 days" of the day branches even if day is forceful on its acutness ...!!
On the other hand don't mixing the day of animal's death with the day of divination ... you must be more safe with month branch .. !!
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Coz if that rule doesn't work clearly it may mean countless other problems upcoming in the future readings. Back that was animal, next time may be a person.
And I'm not saying I would expect the animal to be in perfect health or anything.
But my idea is - if we have Day and Month against the Line - that would suggest the animal is gone.
But we have day supporting it and month against it and we read it as also animal is gone is strange.
That basically means day isn't just weaker then month, its so weak that it doesn't change anything from the worse possible reading when both are against it. And that isn't right, in my view/experience.
Edit: Well, ok I get the idea that moving line carring the month may bring another meaning to it, yet still doesn't seem to fit to the worse case scenario when there is support from an important factor like day branch.
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Yes, but no mention about different day of animal's death and different day of divination making ...!!
Again for this case I insist that Yongshen is Zi water wealth fushen in 5th line and this can satisfy your request .. also Jlim solved this Problem with fushen / feishen both originate from one line .. by saying :
the Flying God (Shen) comes with Hidden Line. So the hidden line can also be an alternative direction. Hidden line is Zi, which is North. So, our best guess would be either Southwest or North. I would not look at other lines to avoid confusing myself.
....
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...And finally the trash was North from the apartment.
That is ensure once more that Yongshen is Zi water wife /wealth hidden on 5th self line ..
如用神为水爻, 方位为北.
if Yongshen is in water line, then the direction is North...
..
Can we do that though?
I thought we aren't suppose to change the focus from what we have chosen initially?
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I would not change the focus of Yongshen (Shen metal ) ... if the Shi Shen Chou (Northeast direction if found the trash ) 3rd line could be acceptable from Liu Yao users on this forum ...!!!
Anyway I don't use it on regular basis ..
..
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A noob question that comes to mind...in other posts (see post below) it was said that if a line in kong wang was supported by the Day (in this case Xu support Shen) it could mean a "fake void". Why does that rule not apply in this case?
About the theory part: the Wild Crane does not explain the Kong Wang (Void) part. The Kong Wang of Xu Earth in this case is fake because it gains the strength from Day Chen.
http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=546.msg3091#msg3091
By another hand:
A. Unless it exists within the Month (as it is impossible for it to be Void and exist within the Day).
This sentence was misunderstood. Does it mean that the month can fill the void if it identifies with the line? In this case, would Shen month fill the void of the Shen Offsprings line?
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A noob question that comes to mind...in other posts (see post below) it was said that if a line in kong wang was supported by the Day (in this case Xu support Shen) it could mean a "fake void". Why does that rule not apply in this case?
About the theory part: the Wild Crane does not explain the Kong Wang (Void) part. The Kong Wang of Xu Earth in this case is fake because it gains the strength from Day Chen.
http://fivearts.org/index.php?topic=546.msg3091#msg3091
Hi Sacrar, I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Please read again. It does apply in that other case too.
Furthermore in the link:
"Xu father helps the brother, but with half the energy."
Half the energy is not as good as full energy, but it's still helpful. Look further what I wrote:
"The brother escaped heavy punishment just because father is 80 years old, and not because father actively did something to save him."
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Hi Sacrar, I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Please read again. It does apply in that other case too.
Furthermore in the link:
"Xu father helps the brother, but with half the energy."
Half the energy is not as good as full energy, but it's still helpful. Look further what I wrote:
"The brother escaped heavy punishment just because father is 80 years old, and not because father actively did something to save him."
Very good explanation dear Jlim ..
I had a doubt too .. but now is very clear what means "fake void "...
Thanks
Tt.