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Author Topic: Why Doesn't The Bazi Seasons Change For People Born In The Southern Hemisphere?  (Read 58929 times)

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Online JLim (Darma W)

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In western schools Tarot is easier, it just shows the images in our fields. That images if strong enough will manifest. But there isn't connection to any calendar, when I thought about that I always assume that is why eastern systems can be so accurate with time, coz they have connection to the calendar.
In Liu Yao (Six Lines) or other Chinese divinations, images are also shown clearly.  This is something that you already knew, Gmuli.  Unfortunately, I don't find much explanation of images in the classical Liu Yao literature.  I'm fortunate enough to have learnt how to derive images from a Taiwanese master.  This is done through the same Liu Yao hexagram, but with much better use of Ten Gods, Month & Day Branches and Six Animals. 

Yo're right that the calendric system in Chinese is what makes its divinatory system more powerful than Tarot.  You can predict not only what and how things happen, but also when things will and will not happen. 
Discover your destiny and make your important decisions at any given time 'n situation

Gmuli

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In western schools Tarot is easier, it just shows the images in our fields. That images if strong enough will manifest. But there isn't connection to any calendar, when I thought about that I always assume that is why eastern systems can be so accurate with time, coz they have connection to the calendar.
In Liu Yao (Six Lines) or other Chinese divinations, images are also shown clearly.  This is something that you already knew, Gmuli.  Unfortunately, I don't find much explanation of images in the classical Liu Yao literature.  I'm fortunate enough to have learnt how to derive images from a Taiwanese master.  This is done through the same Liu Yao hexagram, but with much better use of Ten Gods, Month & Day Branches and Six Animals. 

Yo're right that the calendric system in Chinese is what makes its divinatory system more powerful than Tarot.  You can predict not only what and how things happen, but also when things will and will not happen.

Lets go a little deeper. I agree, in my view its all about Images.
The idea in the systems working with the lightbody/merkaba is that our aura/fields/sacred geometry creates the events in our lives.

While Tarot just picks up the strongest Images from the aura and counts on our spread to fall in correct positions BaZi seems to work with layers and depths.
The Year seems to be the most outer part of our aura, what the outside world(Spirit) will interact with first as we are born. Also the reason it covers early years(as the Spirit will come from outside In as it always does), and also why it covers things related to distance and reaching out. Its just physically more far away back from our third eye(in the middle of the head if we count the pineal gland as it) place for the Images to show.

Month is closer, Day is right beside us and hour is beyond that level, at the position of what they call 2th He(ה) in Kabbalah(the fruit that will manifest in another world/level).




In that sense BaZi pillars just cover the depth of the aura where the Images show up and again the strength of each one as they are enforced by interactions connected to cycles in the geometry in and out.

While for western practitioners may take many years to be able to figure out the time aspect just based on the depth, in BaZi it comes with the system and the images already within.

ZWDS instead of depth tries to map out the whole field bringing out important points that are shinning or not so much in a same layer, then adds more layers with the switching of Palaces.
Also works.

At the end its all about images(well, more or less).
So in that sense it seems Five Arts are more suited to work with time, sure.

While Tarot just picks up the strongest of them, but Tarot originally was used for traveling out of the body. Cards are portals to the paths of the Tree, in the same sense as we can change images with them and that will change events. In that way each system has its place and use.

One of the reason I like the blindstyle lately. While the heavy use of Images may have derived for a lot different reasons(for example that people there needed to replace what other practitioners would be able to see), they stumble upon something very, very important and that is that these systems are innately made to work with Images, more often then not.

When it comes to Liu Yao things become complicated...
It has to still be a flow in the sacred geometry, as all eventually comes to that, but to figure out how it works iwll take a deeper knowledge of the geometry and how it works.

People, that are just starting to work with Sacret Geometry will usually know only one shape of the electromagnetic fields in the aura, and that would usually be the star tetrahedron.



(images from google images and random sites)
Now, what is sometimes given is the idea that each of the Apexs of it holds 1 personality/ Trigram.
3 Daughers and Mother for the Earth tetrahedron and 3 sons and Father for the Sun tetrahedron.

When our life here is done and we are ready to come back again, the tetrahedron will turn and another personality will enter the next life. They change and rotate until we manage to merge them all and go on the steps beyond that...
In that sense, its easy to figure out parts of how Yi Jing works, its just a flow in the geometry creating pulsation.
The problem comes when we add the whole fields because everything becomes a lot more complicated.
But lets stop here as I realize its probably out of topic already. : )

In short - I very much agree it all revolves around Images as the flows in the geometry creates them , empowers them and pulls from the world around us the events connected to them(including time).
But as far as more powerful goes... Sure, for predicting time Five Arts seem more suited, for more powerful - I never said that. : )
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 05:36:20 PM by Gmuli »

Offline Dao


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« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 07:28:16 PM by Dao »

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Gmuli

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I have no idea if I should answer at this point...We keep up piling stuff that has nothing to do with what the problem is...

Earth goes through something called precession of the equinoxes, roughtly 24,000 years.  That is a tilt in the Axis, that is why we have season. Its also the reason all the sky when we look at it today will revolve around a different star then it did two thousand years ago.
 Earth also goes through something called Milankovitch cycles that changes the way Earth rotates around the Sun(every 500 years for the first one) then goes back, again changing the way Earth will relate to all the planets in the Solar System.

That suggests that all this relations mentioned here will be different from one thousand years ago.Nothing of these will point in exactly the same place and as time goes on it will rotate in a full circle as the Earths Axis will keep shifting the position it revolves around.

That is why when we talk about the hemisphere the only factor we look at is the Suns longitude. The other stuff, while interesting is to unstable and changes in a way that isn't included in the Five Arts as far as Im aware(although it is included in western astrology as we know about it for a while).

Looking at history its easy to see people linking it to different planets, constellations and other stuff they could see. It did not originate from that, as that changes in a way they did not include and that will look different today as it will look different in one more thousand years again(in 24 thousand years more or less will look the same then go out of sync again).

Considering that all this again has nothing to do with what was mention before. If someone wants to comment on the Solar Terms and the Seasons(based on Suns longitude) I'm more then open. Other things that will never hold for one thousand years I don't see a point to comment on as they aren't what we base calculation for Solar Terms on its relation, some people during history thought were important and were actually not, as because of the movement of the Earth all that would(and already has) change.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 11:20:03 AM by Gmuli »

Offline The-Monk

@Gmuli

You are concentrating on the wrong thing.

The metaphysical season has nothing to do with the actual seasons, other than it was the names first used to describe seasons back in the Northern Hemisphere, where all this originated from. In short, you are getting hung up over a name that could have been anything else had a country in the Southern Hemisphere discovered all this first and is now the dominant ideology around this art.

Gmuli

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@Gmuli

You are concentrating on the wrong thing.

The metaphysical season has nothing to do with the actual seasons, other than it was the names first used to describe seasons back in the Northern Hemisphere, where all this originated from. In short, you are getting hung up over a name that could have been anything else had a country in the Southern Hemisphere discovered all this first and is now the dominant ideology around this art.

Well... Maybe, but it isn't the name.
Its the way we calculate it.

Zi Rat Branch. Made of 2 Solar Terms:

21.大雪
22.冬至

Now, Solar Term 22 stars at exactly 270 degrees of Suns elliptical longitude.
That is Winter Solstice.

Its not close to it, the Solstice itself is the start of the Solar Term.

So in this way we have the shortest day of the year(the minimum of the light) position in the Zi branch. Seems to fit to the water element.

That is true for all of them.

Offline PdStelle

Hi Gmuli,
I think the best thing in these cases is to conduct an empiric study and see what it works in the reality. Please keep us up to date!

Offline The-Monk

Well... Maybe, but it isn't the name.

Looking back over the posts you made, it appeared to be the case, but I am not you, so I could easily have been mistaken. So let us continue instead.  :)

Quote
Its the way we calculate it.

^
This us here is what you really should have said early on; This was not the case unfortunately if you examine your posts in this thread again, you may have got side tracked by other issues you had. That is why you have not been getting the answers to your troubles, as you appeared to be having issues on a variety of fronts and unable to bring them together. But others who have reached over that threshold already are trying to answer your other problem instead, but because it wasn't your starting issue where you are having issues on, you were having trouble seeing what and why we are answering something you didn't appear to ask yourself.

No matter, everyone gets that. The important thing is that you can get over it.

Quote
Zi Rat Branch. Made of 2 Solar Terms:

21.大雪
22.冬至

Now, Solar Term 22 stars at exactly 270 degrees of Suns elliptical longitude.
That is Winter Solstice.

Its not close to it, the Solstice itself is the start of the Solar Term.

[snip!]

That is true for all of them.

So if I am reading your post right, your real issue is having pinpoint timing calculation that is accurate for all time.

To which I can only answer, you are correct that this will inevitably require recalculation for certain parts used in Five Arts metaphysics. But I will be the first to answer that I do not know the answer to:

1. The calculation required.
2. Or even if the calculation proposed will be the right one.
3. That the Five Elements would even be altered. Because it's metaphysics after all. Not physics.

Quote
So in this way we have the shortest day of the year(the minimum of the light) position in the Zi branch. Seems to fit to the water element.

The bolded and italic part is irrefutable. There is no question about this part. And why you have a solid argument on your hands for your query about the calculation shifting.

But the bolded and underlined part, it only a supposition at best for what any modern person can hold on to. As there is no record of any originator of the Five Elements or Five Arts that would have detailedly described why this relation was put together. Was it because of the mythical deities and the imagery related to them? Was it the Yin/Yang theory and expansion of it and subsequent observation of the Sun and Stars? Or was it simply because they observed other phenomena from the skies over the years and as their knowledge and recollections grew, they were able to see that the Five Element aspect of Water was greatest during the period that is now known as the rat? And from then, applied the two together? In short, two separate systems that when overlaid over each other, produced what we have now? Who can say with absolute certainty?

+1 for pointing out the calculation flaw. But I would still remind you (and anyone else interested in Five Arts), that as it is metaphysics (non hard science) and not physics (hard science), certain things aren't required to have an absolute other than being near enough to it for it to work.

I hope this has helped, but if it hasn't please do continue posting. But please do make sure you are asking what really concerns you or what concerns you have, otherwise all you will do is frustrate yourself and others replies with answers don't seem to be read or don't seem to be replying to the question you have.

Gmuli

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Quote
certain things aren't required to have an absolute other than being near enough to it for it to work

I guess.

But it fits so perfectly... Solstices and Equinoxes in the middle of peach blossom branches, Mao when the Day is equal to the Night but starting to increase, You when its the opposite...
Wu on the longest day, while Zi on the shortest one...

Its just really nicely working together and following the cycle of increase and decrease of light in the day during the year...
May be a coincidence or maybe something else is at play here, but I never liked the idea of coincidence as an explanation for anything.

Also lets not forget there are practitioners there that do invert branches.


PdStelle : Well, we tried but how much can we say for a branch inversion in people we never met?Problem with marriage, fine, but imagine the person had a very stable long term relationship just did managed to hide it from the media. Its branches, they shouldn't be that easily seen from media articles and I don't know currently anyone living in the other hemisphere.

Offline The-Monk

Quote
certain things aren't required to have an absolute other than being near enough to it for it to work

I guess.

But it fits so perfectly... Solstices and Equinoxes in the middle of peach blossom branches, Mao when the Day is equal to the Night but starting to increase, You when its the opposite...
Wu on the longest day, while Zi on the shortest one...

Its just really nicely working together and following the cycle of increase and decrease of light in the day during the year...
May be a coincidence or maybe something else is at play here, but I never liked the idea of coincidence as an explanation for anything.

The more you try to pin something down in metaphysics, the more it will slip away from you. That is the way of Yin and Yang. To which the Five Elements are born. Is that coincidence? Or an actual law? Or are they really just the same thing?

In this case, does it truly matter either way? It simply still is what it would be, is it not?

Quote
Also lets not forget there are practitioners there that do invert branches.

I will simply add that I do not invert. But what more is there to take from that? It might be they are wrong. It might be I am not skilled enough. What you are trying to do, is noble. Working it out down to the lowest point. But in metaphysics, the lowest point is also the highest point, somewhere you can never get to. Don't fall into the trap that befalls so many others. Five Arts and Five Elements, is not physics. It can be related to it. And that is really all you should be concerned with if you wish to progress into the advanced stages.  ;)

Offline TenVirtues

I have no idea if I should answer at this point...We keep up piling stuff that has nothing to do with what the problem is...

Earth goes through something called precession of the equinoxes, roughtly 24,000 years.  That is a tilt in the Axis, that is why we have season. Its also the reason all the sky when we look at it today will revolve around a different star then it did two thousand years ago.
 Earth also goes through something called Milankovitch cycles that changes the way Earth rotates around the Sun(every 500 years for the first one) then goes back, again changing the way Earth will relate to all the planets in the Solar System.

That suggests that all this relations mentioned here will be different from one thousand years ago.Nothing of these will point in exactly the same place and as time goes on it will rotate in a full circle as the Earths Axis will keep shifting the position it revolves around.

That is why when we talk about the hemisphere the only factor we look at is the Suns longitude. The other stuff, while interesting is to unstable and changes in a way that isn't included in the Five Arts as far as Im aware(although it is included in western astrology as we know about it for a while).

Looking at history its easy to see people linking it to different planets, constellations and other stuff they could see. It did not originate from that, as that changes in a way they did not include and that will look different today as it will look different in one more thousand years again(in 24 thousand years more or less will look the same then go out of sync again).

Considering that all this again has nothing to do with what was mention before. If someone wants to comment on the Solar Terms and the Seasons(based on Suns longitude) I'm more then open. Other things that will never hold for one thousand years I don't see a point to comment on as they aren't what we base calculation for Solar Terms on its relation, some people during history thought were important and were actually not, as because of the movement of the Earth all that would(and already has) change.

Hi Gmuli,
I think you confusing Western Astrology, with Eastern Vedic/Chinese Astrology. Both Vedic and Chinese Astrology use fixed star to determine the start and stop of
the zodiac and constellations. So the procession of the equinoxes do not affect or change their viewpoint. Spica is always used as 0 degrees of the 1st Chinese Constellation, While the Indians use 180 degrees from Spica as 0 Degrees of Aries.
This will never change no matter the procession of equinoxes, it will always be calculated back to match Spica as 0 Degrees or 180 degrees.

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