Why Doesn't The Bazi Seasons Change For People Born In The Southern Hemisphere?

[Gmuli]

I have no idea if I should answer at this point...We keep up piling stuff that has nothing to do with what the problem is...

Earth goes through something called precession of the equinoxes, roughtly 24,000 years.  That is a tilt in the Axis, that is why we have season. Its also the reason all the sky when we look at it today will revolve around a different star then it did two thousand years ago.
 Earth also goes through something called Milankovitch cycles that changes the way Earth rotates around the Sun(every 500 years for the first one) then goes back, again changing the way Earth will relate to all the planets in the Solar System.

That suggests that all this relations mentioned here will be different from one thousand years ago.Nothing of these will point in exactly the same place and as time goes on it will rotate in a full circle as the Earths Axis will keep shifting the position it revolves around.

That is why when we talk about the hemisphere the only factor we look at is the Suns longitude. The other stuff, while interesting is to unstable and changes in a way that isn't included in the Five Arts as far as Im aware(although it is included in western astrology as we know about it for a while).

Looking at history its easy to see people linking it to different planets, constellations and other stuff they could see. It did not originate from that, as that changes in a way they did not include and that will look different today as it will look different in one more thousand years again(in 24 thousand years more or less will look the same then go out of sync again).

Considering that all this again has nothing to do with what was mention before. If someone wants to comment on the Solar Terms and the Seasons(based on Suns longitude) I'm more then open. Other things that will never hold for one thousand years I don't see a point to comment on as they aren't what we base calculation for Solar Terms on its relation, some people during history thought were important and were actually not, as because of the movement of the Earth all that would(and already has) change.

Hi Gmuli,
I think you confusing Western Astrology, with Eastern Vedic/Chinese Astrology. Both Vedic and Chinese Astrology use fixed star to determine the start and stop of
the zodiac and constellations. So the procession of the equinoxes do not affect or change their viewpoint. Spica is always used as 0 degrees of the 1st Chinese Constellation, While the Indians use 180 degrees from Spica as 0 Degrees of Aries.
This will never change no matter the procession of equinoxes, it will always be calculated back to match Spica as 0 Degrees or 180 degrees.

Hi.
Check the HK observatory, only factor we use to calculate the starting of the Solar Terms is the Suns apparent longitude(more simple the place of the Sun during the year when viewed from Earth). And Suns longitude is what we use to tell the Solstices/Equinoxes.
https://www.hko.gov.hk/gts/astron2018/2018SolarTerms24.pdf

No star play a role in the calculation, and logically they can't, as if we keep Sun/Earth relation a constant all else will change with time.

Tientai: I loved that comics some years ago. Some really wise stuff from there. : )

[TenVirtues]

Hi Gmuli,
Calculating the Solar Term is different from saying the Chinese Astrology is based on the Solar Term.
In terms of Precession of the Equinoxes the Chinese and Indians don't calculate that because we use Fixed Stars to measure the Zodiac.
We always adjust back to the original position of the stars. That is why Indians go back 24 degrees from Western Astrological Charts.
So that the Zodiac aligns with the Stars not with the Earth. This is called Sidereal astrology or fixed star Astrology.

[Gmuli]

Calculating the Solar Term is different from saying the Chinese Astrology is based on the Solar Term.

True. In my point of view the whole topic is only about the Month Branch(sometimes including the stem) and that is based on the Solar Terms in the Solar Calendar.
As each branch is made of 2 Solar Terms, so 30 degrees of the Suns movement.

And as Month Branch is calculated based on the Solar Terms the stars does not play a role in this specific problem(Hemispheres).

[TenVirtues]

Hi Gmuli,
Ah but it does have a lot to do with the Stars and Astrology especially in the Month branch.
From the Month branch or the 月令。 We can see the position of the Sun in its determining constellations.
For example in 子Month The Sun will traverse through the 6th 7th 8th and 9th Chinese Lunar Constellations.
The 6th Lunar constellation overlaps with 亥 month, while the 9th constellation overlaps with 丑 month.
Depending on Which day you were born the Sun would be in one of these constellations, but also understand that the Zodiac sign of 子 itself,
is represented by the whole of 7th and 8th Chinese constellation. Especially the 8th constellation Dipper which is the 斗star which is called 星官(The Governor of The Stars）
Which is why 子 is the head of the Chinese Zodiac.

Not the mention that the combination of the Year Branch and Monthly Branch also gives the position of Saturn and Jupiter in relation to the 28 Chinese Constellation.
While the combination of the Year Month and Day gives position of the faster moving planets Mars,Mercury,Venus to their corresponding 28 Constellation placement.

I honestly don't blame you for not knowing this stuff, because modern day Chinese is more Metaphysics then it is Astrological.
Yet the Metaphysical part is based on Astrological Principles that are no longer mentioned this most be emphasized.

[Gmuli]

But we get again to that, all this relations will change because of the precession(Earths axis tilt). : )
I have checked everything you can think of... From orbits of the other planets to Sun spots activity cycle and all else we can think of.
There is nothing that stays the same for 4 thousand years though the precession(nothing stays even for 2 and when it comes to the orbits of the other planets it usually falls apart in a few centuries as the orbits are never as exact as people seem to think).

If you really think one of them will stay we can look at one of them in details.
Just choose one. : )

28 constellation of course also moves as the point the night sky revolves around change every 2 thousand years.  So dividing the sky in any way will give different result as the Earth axis points to different star with time. One of the reasons some Feng Shui masters avoid using techniques connected to them, as its just not reliable in the way they look at it(I view it differently, but that is long to go into).

[TenVirtues]

No, i just think you keep on mistaking the difference between Tropical Astrology and Sidereal Astrology.

[Gmuli]

Well... All this was suppose to be for the Month Branch and does it need inverting...
But its all good, lets then look at the Year Pillar.

I get the idea of fixed stars, but we need much, much more to actually connect it to the year pillar.
So lets look at the Jupiter Saturn relations to the constellations.

As without this all is just empty words, lets try to see how it actually work.
The idea seems to be Jupiter and Saturn will have same relation to the constellation they had 4 thousand years ago and that relation creates the Year Pillar.

For all this to work that relation have to be exactly 60 years(or 10/12 years) as of course it will drift off if its even a day more or less.
Nothing in the relation of Jupiter or Saturn orbits is exactly 10 or 12 years as far as I'm aware, neither is their relation to a specific constellation fixed at exactly 10 or 12 years(or even 60 years) when we view it from Earth.

Fixed stars or not, all this could work only if Saturn or Jupiter had some relation with a constellation that was exactly 12 and 10 years. But it has to be exactly, one day difference and in 3 centuries it will drift off by a day already...

As how their relation to each other and the constellation are used is unclear will try to guess.

Some of the relation like the synodic periods of revolution for Jupiter and Saturn seems close at first and some authors(Lim for example) did think they are the base of it... But they are not, lets look at that -
Jupiter  sidereal period - 11.9 years,
Saturn sidereal period   - 29.5 years

It seems so close, but think about it, just in a century you will already have 1 year difference for Jupiter and in 60 years will have 1 year difference for Saturn.

Others were providing ideas that were even more far off...
I don't see the point of guessing the one you have accepted as accurate and commenting on all of them, so if you provide the calculations you are using we can look into it.

So its not that I don't get the idea of fixed star. Its just that the idea alone doesn't mean much. We are talking about relation of Jupiter and Saturn to the constelation that creates the Year Pillar. If we exclude the Earth from it because of the precession and look only in the relation of that 2 planets to the stars we need something that is exactly 10 years and 12 years without a day difference. And providing that will be challenging, but I'm more then happy to see if you can. : )

[Gmuli]

I'm not trying to be mean. I get that to use the system practically all this may not be needed. However for me to use better these systems these relations and meaning behind it all often helps. In this specific case I would be more then happy if we find out a valid base for the Year Pillar. Been looking in that for a long time.
But to do it we have to go down to the actual orbits, years and relations. Too deep or not, its the only way to actually see how it works. Is that important... It is for me.

It is not the only important thing. I'm more then happy to use QMDJ without any adjustments and inversation or any idea why it works for most of it. But I also know when I learn it well enough its more then likely to figure out that as well.

I get that for many it may be going too deep. But I am curios creature and I do need that to work more fully with the systems. It won't stop me to use them in the way that seems to work best, understanding why or not, but as soon as there is a chance I will try to understand why and how. Always.

[TenVirtues]

Hi @Gmuli,
I thought i was expalining why the Month branch can not be inverted all this time! Lol. You can't just focus on one aspect of the BaZi chart and say
lets just Focus on the Month branch because we are talking about inversion. When you switch the Month branch you basically switch the rest of the BaZi chart.
Anyways i just came on the share my knowledge. If you do not like or accept what i say that is ok with me. I do not expect everyone to accept what i say.
I am definitely not about to come on here and give you a Astrology Class. That is something you should do yourself called Self-Study.
Saturn Cycles are based on 甲子旬, and it's relation with the Month branch. Basically 60x12= 720 possible combinations.
Based on these 720 possible combinations will show the position of Jupiter and Saturn. The position of Jupiter or more exactly Shadow Jupiter Aka Grand Duke.
Is seen from the Year position, Grand Duke is about 24 degrees behind real position of Jupiter which is the same as sidereal Jupiter.
Basically the Grand Duke is the Sidereal position of Jupiter, as in Matching Jupiter to the corresponding Constellation(Zodiac) and not it's relevance to Earth.
I am not going to give the whole formula on here because it will take too much time. This information i am giving really isn't hidden it's probably just that you
have not really studied "Chinese Astrology". You have been studying Chinese Metaphysics. There is a clear difference.
If you want to know these formulas just pick up Ho Peng Yoke, and you can get half the Formulas you are asking for.
The concepts i am explaining really are the most basic Concepts in Chinese Astrology, If you don't even understand or grasp these concepts no use going
more advanced.
It would be like trying to teach someone how to run before they know how to walk.
And don't worry you are not being mean at all, your just ill informed i am not offended at all.

[Gmuli]

Basically the Grand Duke is the Sidereal position of Jupiter, as in Matching Jupiter to the corresponding Constellation(Zodiac) and not it's relevance to Earth.

Some of the relation like the synodic periods of revolution for Jupiter and Saturn seems close at first and some authors(Lim for example) did think they are the base of it... But they are not, lets look at that -
Jupiter  sidereal period - 11.9 years,
Saturn sidereal period   - 29.5 years

It seems so close, but think about it, just in a century you will already have 1 year difference for Jupiter and in 60 years will have 1 year difference for Saturn.

[Gmuli]

About the other stuff... I get that its tempting to try to explain in every post how ill informed I am. That can help someone feel nice, but I would ask, read what I have wrote before that?
As otherwise the topic can't really flow well. : )

[Dao]

Hi All,

Thank you The Monk and TenVirtues for useful clarifications!...

But I would still remind you (and anyone else interested in Five Arts), that as it is metaphysics (non hard science) and not physics (hard science), certain things aren't required to have an absolute other than being near enough to it for it to work.

It seems than Physics and Metaphysics are complementary but not exactly the same..

There is also some process in Western astrology like mid point, equal part, etc..

Chinese Astrology can be linked directly with Physics and Astronomy..
Chinese Metaphysics seem to have transformed Physics by Images symbols, etc... like.. Yin Yang, Four Images etc..

For information: The Mathematics of the Chinese Calendar Helmer Aslaksen Department of Mathematics National University of Singapore (pdf)

Best Regards

 

[TenVirtues]

Basically the Grand Duke is the Sidereal position of Jupiter, as in Matching Jupiter to the corresponding Constellation(Zodiac) and not it's relevance to Earth.

Some of the relation like the synodic periods of revolution for Jupiter and Saturn seems close at first and some authors(Lim for example) did think they are the base of it... But they are not, lets look at that -
Jupiter  sidereal period - 11.9 years,
Saturn sidereal period   - 29.5 years

It seems so close, but think about it, just in a century you will already have 1 year difference for Jupiter and in 60 years will have 1 year difference for Saturn.

Hi,
At this point we are just going in circles. I keep trying to tell you that these cycles are
not Tropical based. Yet you keep falling back on the precession of the equinoxes.
When what i have been trying to explain all along is that Sidereal Astrology don't take into consideration of the precession of the equinoxes. If you don't know the difference by now the difference between Tropical Astrology and Sidereal Astrology no point in  continuing a debate.

[Gmuli]

I do know the difference. One used fixed stars and doesn't count the relation to the Earth.

As I explained and posted that isn't enough by itself. Even if you use fixed stars the numbers still doesn't add up.

[Gmuli]

Then again if you knew what sidereal period means you would understand what I was posting was already from the Sidereal Astrology  point of view, as you seem to want.

So you are a fan of sidereal astrology but you didn't understood the periods given was already of the orbit by itself and not its relation to Earth?