Western Astrology

[Gmuli]

I haven't mention it before, but I have my reasons to think long time ago western astrology and chinese metaphysics(at least what that was back then) were used together as one coherent system.

This is long to go into and it will involve old calendars, historical medals and other stuff that isn't for here now. Yet it brings the interesting idea of starting a topic with some basic ideas and rules behind western astrology.
If nothing else at least we will be able to understand the kid form india and his predictions somewhat better.

I'm still learning here. While I have been in more then a few seminars for it, have studied systems connected to it like tarot and kabbalah for most of my life and have close people that have studied it in great depth, I never focused much on it until lately.

So here will try to point some of the major factors that are often looked at. Similar to how in some books will only be looked as what symbolizes the branch of the year and in some schools there will be a very strong focus on the "structure", basically month branch and its hidden stems, so in western astrology there is a strong focus on 2 aspects of the system.

One is where the Sun was at the time of birth.
The other is the so called Ascendant.

Lets start with the Sun.

First, if you want to follow along you need astrology software. I'm currently using zet, its free in its lite version and it offers a lot more then other ones out there for me.

Zet we can get from here.
http://zaytsev.com/downloads.html

We download the file, extract it and install it. Then run the ZET 9 Lite .exe file.

We should see a similar image to this.



Here we can see a few rings. The most outter one on the default screen has roman numbers(I, II, III etc).
This are the houses.
The inner ring from that one will have zodiacal signs and that are basically constellations.

Similar to this:
For example aries will be this ♈
Taurus this ♉
Etc

So this is basically the night sky above us at time of asking.
Each planet of the Solar System will fall into one of this constellations/signs at each moment of the day/month/year.

So basically we see the map of the night sky and its relation to the Earth and the Solar System for the time we ask about(someones birth, usually, but there are also parts of astorlogy called "prognostic" that works very similar to QMDJ, we ask a question and depended on the current position of the planets and constellations we find the answer).

Now we know the outer rings. That are the houses, what they mean is long to go for first post. Then we have the signs, and the signs are the stars and part of the sky a planet will fall into.

After that we get to the more inner rings and that happens with the planets.
That shows the position of the Planet at each moment of time.

Lets find the Sun at the current time.


The movement of the Sun during the year is very connected to how the month branch works in the solar calendar. As the Sun enters this constellations at the same time each year more or less.

To find the Sun and where it is currently we need only 2 things. We need the Sun symbol and we need the symbol of the constellation it is in.  Mouse over different parts of the map can provide much of that.

The symbol for the Sun is ☉(circle and dot) while we already saw Aries(the Ram in old civilizations) symbol as ♈.

We look at the chart/map and we can see that the Sun falls into the borders of Aries, currently.
(we will work only with tropical maps, not sidereal unless there is a reason)

Knowing where the Sun was, is knowing our Sun sign. So when in the west someone asks what sign we are, we know they ask where was the Sun at the time of our birth. : )

Thats it, may continue it at some point, so far this should be enough to be able to see where are all the planets in relation to our Earth currently, where they will be at different points of time and a little about how they interact with each other.
The interactions are the lines with triangles or squeres in the most inner ring, they are very similar to the relation of Chinese Metaphysics, even though more connected to a planet and context then always static.

[Gmuli]

Before we move on to more specific stuff its good to clarify about tropical vs sidereal astrology.
We say that the map shows the Earth in the middle, then each planet with the constelation "behind" it(as that is where it looks like from Earth.

That is not entirely true for the tropical map. In there Aries is positioned at spring equinox, so its just a moment when the wheel starts to rise from.
That is not the real position where the constellations are actually now. The Earth is tilted, people usually look at the tilt as fixed, however its not(again because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milankovitch_cycles), however the important part is that is changing with time. And when we say or sing about the age of Aquarius that is the movement that we view as the planet moving to it. So in the actual situation Aries won't always start at the equinox(and currently it doesn't) it will change with time.

Anyway, more on that later if it seems good idea. The part I wanted to clarify is that tropical astrology seems to be very connected to the way the Month Branch works. The Solar Terms are position on the equinoxes/solstices and so are the 12 zodiacal signs in tropical chart.
Of course, when compared to the branches they seem to be tilted... And while that may seem strange at first(I was wondering about that for many years), it actually has very good explanation now.

Sidereal chart is basically what is in reality. The constellations are where they actually are and while that may seem more accurate at first glance, the connection with the Five Arts doesn't seem as easy to see, in my view. And there is more to research, so may change with time, but so far.

Well, we are viewing sources that got it right about the current situation in other topics... One interesting source is also Gahl Sasson.  In his last book he got it right too, will link a video from him, so there is some context. Also so we start to get into somewhat more practical part of how to get some meaning of parts of a chart.
You can see parts of it are very similar to systems of the Five Arts(QMDJ more then anything else, but still), yet parts are very connected to the planets and their movement from our point of view and that is somewhat different.

He made some tarot/kabbala and astrology seminars in my country, some awesome stuff(the meditations especially).



This was december 2019 and is more connected to the end of these year, also only about the conjunction.

[DiegoFS]

In reference to Gmuli's comments, the Chinese Astrology of the 4 Pillars and the Western Chaldean Astrology are ALL right, once they were ONE. Although it seems incredible, it is.

The story is summarized as follows: in southeastern Mesopotamia, the last of the ancient empires were the Chaldeans, because although they were Semites by race, they received information from the Sumerians who ruled there, long before and came from Hindustan. The Sumerians had a connection with China through the ties they had with another older and more powerful Civilization: Mohenjo Daro and Harappa, which in turn had the most sophisticated maritime fleets before 4,000 BC and had ties to Imperial China.

As Western Astrology (Chaldea) is well known, it gravitates around 12 Houses, which is what we know today. Years ago a French researcher had found Chaldean Birth Charts of 8 Houses ruined from Ancient Babylon. As we well know, the 4 Pillars of Chinese Astrology have 4 Celestial Stems and 4 Terrestrial Branches or "archetypal animals", that is, 8 Grids. Based on the above, and personally, I tried to merge the 2 astrologies: the Western and the Eastern (BaZi), and I really succeeded (or at least partially) using mathematical algorithms at the expense of the musical notes (7) of Western classical music to be able to calculate and separate the respective Houses. I managed to get some natal charts with planets, but within 8 Houses, that is, adapting the BaZi. However, I found it very tedious to start building a "new doctrine." In fact, I destroyed most of that information because it seemed impractical, I had to do a lot of trial and error. And at the end of the day I thought it was a bad idea, especially since Chinese BaZi already exists. As a consequence, the easiest and simplest way was to learn well the technique of the 4 Classic Pillars that already has a body of Doctrine Elaborated for millennia.

But I confirm the thought of Gmuli, BaZi Chinese Astrology and Chinese Astrology were once a SINGLE. It is even ratified by the fact that the Chinese Astrology of Emperor Zi Wei Dou Shu also has 12 Palaces, as well as the 12 Houses of Western Chaldean Astrology. It seems silly, but it is not. That they parted through the timeline, that's another story.

[NewMan]

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[NewMan]

Here is a good video for you to get started.

[Gmuli]

I liked the video, good thing about western astrology is that there is mountains of free and available info in English and even just with that someone can start making very good readings.
Personally, I use Koch division of the houses.
I have still much to learn about it, but there were some very clear examples that show that this is what works best for me.


In western astrology one of the big thing people are expecting for a while now is the so called "age of aquarius".
Some of the astrologers I like, seem to think that with the next Solstice(around 21 december this year) this may finally move on a higher gear.
Its somewhat complex to explain, if someone wants I can go more into it, but lets just say its good news for most people and the way its explain in the literature it makes a lot of sense...


About the western astrology and the five arts, if someone is curious I can post some more info, but it may be difficult to get unless we understand the Solar Terms and what they do very well.

Other then that, there is so much going on from the point of view of western astrology that I didn't knew how to continue the topic, but this youtube series seem nice, there is overwhelming amount of info all around the net as well. I personally liked The Only Astrology Book You'll Ever Need, name is silly somewhat, but it is a good book for starting out.


Gahl's Kabbala stuff is very nice as well, even more so the meditation. And working with all that and the sephirot is a good step toward changing stuff, be that in western chart or in bazi(as the stems and branches are imprint that happens in the Causal layers of our aura, it isn't set in stone, if we know how we can change parts of it).

[Gmuli]

I'm wondering how and if I should continue this... There are countless materials in the net, for each aspect of the system, while that is good and I don't want to repeat stuff that is already there, there is also the idea that sometimes its difficult to find our way in so much info. So will point some interesting approaches/ideas one can use. Up to anyone individually interested in these, to expand on all of it.

Good thing to know, is that the part of astrology that works as answering question is called "horary astrology". Much of it is very similar to QMDJ and other similar systems - we have a map, we look at it at the right time and it contains the answer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horary_astrology

There is still "self' and the answer/outcome in some form, much info in the net about details.

About the other stuff, well there are rings, if you look at the map.
The outer ring has roman letters(I, V, X etc)
These are the houses. This shows where something will take effect. For example house 4- it will effect family and close friends.

Similar to how we make Images based on the pillars in bazi, or based on line position in Liu Yao, it shows what part of our life will be affected, only there are 12 parts here.
Its made in accordance to the hour of asking.

Ring below are the Signs, the one below are the Planets.
As in the five arts, we stack Images, when we see something repeating we say something will show up.
Images come from the Planets, Signs, Houses and their relation(squares, conjunctions etc.)
Conjunction is similar to combination, Opposition to Clash and Trine to San He combination.
Its a little more complex, but in simple terms this is very, very similar, enough to be used in practice.
There is a movement here, though, it always start from conjunction and similar to the Five Arts it goes through contracting then expanding again, I assume there is in the Five Arts as well, but I haven't gotten to relating them in that way yet.

And as in bazi, the Images coming from the place itself are more important. Cancer loves family and is related to the Moon, yet family image coming from house IV, is much stronger then the one coming with cancer. Female Image is more strong coming from the Moon, then from the Cancer itself... Overall, just need some time and practice to figure out how the priorities work, but we do that in bazi as well, with pillars, 10 shens and all other stuffs.
(Parent line can show mother for a male, yet if its in the Hour Pillar the position isn't right, so unlikely we will take it as actual parent, as the image of the pillar is stronger for this specific thing)

Lets look at the nodes...
The nodes are the positions where the Moons movement intersect the ecliptic, apparently.
They are always opposite each other.

Simple idea here - south node is what we have developed in past incarnations. In that same sense, its much of what we are letting go of, now, as this is what we try to use time and time again, as its what we are familiar with. That may prevent us from growing and using what is out there and is unfamiliar yet.

And that(what is out there and we are trying to learn to use this life) is what the North Node is about.
Again we check their Images, North Node in House 4 - we are trying to learn how to interact, understand and flow into the idea of family and close friends. While that means South Node will be in house 10, so we already cleared out carrier, prominence etc.

We also can look at the relations of other planets to them, and see how our life now is situated based on the experience we gathered and what is there to be understood this time around.

[DiegoFS]

There is a part that I use to apply sometimes in BaZi Analysis and it is what I call: SECONDARY ANALYSIS.

For example, the Three San 1 He 2 Units are fully compatible with the Radioangulation schemes of Western Astrology (as mentioned by Gmuli). In my personal case, sometimes and especially in Synastry Readings (studies of couples or Comparative Natal Charts), I usually apply a Mixed Method of BaZi versus Chaldean Astrology. In that sense, a person who is a Cancer sign born in the Year of the Buffalo is not the same as another who is a Libra sign of the Year of the Buffalo, or another who is a Virgo sign of the same Year of the Buffalo. The characteristics of these 3 types of personalities change markedly and their destiny also. And when analyzing BaZi Seasons, it is sometimes very useful to do this kind of Combinatorial Analysis.

The same happens, when a Solar Revolution from Western Astrology is used, in which the Zodiac is converted into a 7 House Structure (it is a kind of Stepped Biorhythm) and thus, you can make an interpolation with a year Xìng Nián 幸determined.

Likewise, the Lunar Cycles or Phases that are so common in Western Astrology applications can be complemented with Energetic Dates of the Chinese Calendar, when making detailed evaluations and diagnosis of dates.

Much skill, dexterity and knowledge of the 2 Astrologies must be acquired in order to do Mixed Readings. Not everything can be done, but it is true that there are certain connecting energy threads.

It is very likely that the Purple Star Astrology has greater insights with Western Astrology, considering that the first uses 12 Palaces and the second 12 Houses. However, I do not know the ZWDS Doctrine in its essence.

[Gmuli]

Well... Saturn is out of Aquarius now... Wasn't disappointing at all, had big expectations and it did cover much more then that. Now, however, its getting even more interesting as Pluto is in and out of Aquarius(currently back to Capricorn until September).

This is big stuff, as having the most innert of structures going into it for the next 30 years suggests changes on level most people may not be expecting.

Anyway, all this are very big topics and our current recommendation is this:
https://www.amazon.com/Astrology-2023-Traversing-Bridge-Movement/dp/B0BFWDRL3Q

He has one of them everyyear and its very, very good read.

[Spiritsfan]

Zodiac astrology is based on Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos.  Ptolemy used the concept of fire and water.  His planets are divided into categories.  Dry, wet, hot, cold.  Ptolemy also wrote that everything revolves around the Earth.  The concept of states is reminiscent of Wu Xing.  But what I consider zodiac astrology is not the original concept of Ptolemy.  Karma - Ptolemy has nothing like that.  Black Moon and a lot of other things were added for no apparent reason or where.

[Gmuli]

Zodiac astrology is based on Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos.  Ptolemy used the concept of fire and water.  His planets are divided into categories.  Dry, wet, hot, cold.  Ptolemy also wrote that everything revolves around the Earth.  The concept of states is reminiscent of Wu Xing.  But what I consider zodiac astrology is not the original concept of Ptolemy.  Karma - Ptolemy has nothing like that.  Black Moon and a lot of other things were added for no apparent reason or where.

In his work he did mention "the old masters" he learned from... So where did it start... People, today seem to consider it was in Babylonian times. But if we read about Sumer, we can see much of the culture and religion from Babylon and Akkad, seem to have started from Sumer.
Same from the old testament(Torah), actually, situations there are also in Sumerian tablets, but in more detailed form...

So where did it start... Who knows. But if we believe in Ptolemys work itself, it didn't started from there and his view to it was... Limited at best.
The reason one often sees him in this is because his text is consider foundation of astronomy, and science love that...

Black Moon and a lot of other things were added for no apparent reason or where.

People use what has proven to work.Or what they noticed...
And that is how the best cuisines are made!people keep adding random crap and suddenly... We have mishmash!And who doesn't like mishmash...

In any case, if you don't like the black moon, you can use any other colored Moon you prefer.
I personally also doesn't enjoy black Moon, I think they may have named it something more creative and more fitting to its actual calculation, like "Where-did- that-thing-go-we-could-see-it-not-long-ago...?!"
Yet since its too long I assume people saw black moon is shorter, they decided on that... I guess people will likely stay with it.

Does it carry meaning, the moment when the Moon is furthest away from us... We know the distance of the Moon has effect on tides and stuff, seems silly to think it doesn't have effect on us.
Yet one can freely ignore it, why not...

[Spiritsfan]

The black moon is the coordinates opposite the Moon.  You can also make black Mercury or Saturn.  There is no calculation.  Ptolemy's system is simple.  And it is based on his other works and the views of his contemporaries.  For example, playing cards with four suits are also based on the same system.  Gypsies tell fortunes on them according to the old canons.  It's easier for me.  I took a course on BaZi from a person who was unable to use zodiac astrology in real life.  And switched to QiMenDunJia.  After a long search.  And besides Ptolemy there are no reliable sources.  So I used it.

[Gmuli]

I have some doubts... ; )
Bazi is nice, its good you are happy with what you are using...
I don't plan to take much courses, moving forward. What I need, I think I have, now is just staying around the communities, as I do enjoy metaphysics and some social aspect help others to learn faster and one to rearrange what they know as well.
So different motivation I guess.

But lets agree to disagree on the other stuff. We view it very differently, and that is, of course, fine by itself.

[Spiritsfan]

Undoubtedly.  That's why I'm writing here.  Having studied the primary sources, astrology is the same.  Everywhere there is a pantheon of Gods.  Everywhere there are procedures for worshiping the Gods.  Everywhere there is fate - like the will of the Gods.  In BaZi, the Gods are the trunks of heaven, in zodiac astrology - planets and stars.  Therefore, I am very surprised how easily in zodiac astrology many other Gods are added to the pantheon of Gods.  And the whole concept collapses.

[Gmuli]

Undoubtedly.  That's why I'm writing here.  Having studied the primary sources, astrology is the same.  Everywhere there is a pantheon of Gods.  Everywhere there are procedures for worshiping the Gods.  Everywhere there is fate - like the will of the Gods.  In BaZi, the Gods are the trunks of heaven, in zodiac astrology - planets and stars.  Therefore, I am very surprised how easily in zodiac astrology many other Gods are added to the pantheon of Gods.  And the whole concept collapses.

I can respect that. Reminds me of this.
Its from the Zohar, translated by the chariot people:

http://www.workofthechariot.com/PDF/NewSifraDetzniyutha2.pdf

This is comparable to a person whose dwelling was among the mountains, and he (she)
knew no townsfolk. He used to sow wheat and ate the wheat grains as they are. One day he
entered the town. They offered him good bread.
Said that person, “What is this for?” They said, “It is bread to eat.” He ate and it was
singularly pleasant to his taste. He said, “And of what is this made?” They said, “Of wheat
grains.” Then they offered him cakes kneaded in oil. He tasted of them. He said, “And these, of
what are they made?”
They said, “Of wheat grains.” Then they offered him pastry prepared for royalty, kneaded
with honey and oil. He tasted them and said, “And these, of what are they made?” They said,
“Of wheat grains.” He said, “Surely I am the master of all of these, for I eat the essence of all of
these, which is wheat.”
And because of this disposition he knew as NOT (al) the delicacies of the world, and they
were lost to him. It is likewise for him who seizes the general principle of wisdom4 , and knows
as NOT (al) all the pleasing delicacies that derive from the general principle.”

Did the person missed on that... I think so. Yet sometimes there are many reasons one will choose that road as well. All is good I think, depends on what we think is needed in each situation.
I personally have cases of choosing both approaches, depending what is more appropriate... In western astrology I would focus on what works, I use nodes and stuff, they aren't planets, either...
But I don't have a reason to just use planets, there is more in there worth investigating and using, if one is focused on that, in my humble view.  I'm not that much, however, I use mostly for global tendency as in that its indispensable in my experience.

How about you?